What's it like to PRESENT at an international voice conference?
Dr Gillyanne Kayes & Jeremy Fisher presented at PEVoC14 in Tallinn, Estonia.
Gillyanne's first Round Table organisation, and Jeremy's first solo Workshop
The nerves, the outcomes, the feedback, the content, the preparation
We reveal all!
Check out some of Jeremy's video examples from his workshop "Get On, Sing, Get Off"
· Glottal onsets/offsets: Beyonce - Single Ladies https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4m1EFMoRFvY from 40 seconds in
· Yodel/flip onsets/offsets: Lizzo - Cuz I Love You https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NqjPqsry7no First 10 seconds, and last 15 seconds
· Yodel/flip onsets upwards: Soulounge featuring Roger Cicero https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Grfw54YagYQ from 20 seconds in
Find out more about Jeremy's Onsets and Offsets in the Learning Lounge (Best Practice Update course) here https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/the-vocal-technique-learning-lounge
This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This is a voice. Hello, and welcome to this is a voice season six episode two, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. And this is the PEVoC experience part two. So we are back at the pan European voice conference. And this time we're gonna be talking about what we did. Jeremy, how was it for you doing your very first workshop at a voice science conference? Um, probably one of the scariest things I've done, uh, a lot scarier than doing most of the concerts I've ever done in my life. Uh, it was really fascinating because there's so much about it that, I mean, you have your presentation, but you have no idea how many people are gonna be there. Mm-hmm. Or if you're even gonna have an audience at all. So, um, yeah, there were a lot of pluses, I mean, fantastic space to work in. It was the concert hall and I think it's a 600 seater theatre. Mm-hmm, really lovely. And a full concert D Steinway grand, which was beautiful. I wasn't originally going to play the piano, but being presented with that, I just went well, I'll play the piano anyway. You just couldn't resist. Could you? Yes. So my, uh, my workshop was called, "Get On, Sing, Get Off". And it was all about tone onset and offsets, which is how you start and finish a note. And it was sort of, I had an hour to play with, which is quite a long time for something like this. So I started with some industry examples, uh, some videos of people demonstrating, onset and offsets. And in fact, what makes it quite difficult to find the industry examples is I really wanted people who would demonstrate an onset or an offset several times in a sentence. And that's quite hard to find mm-hmm because singers are incredibly creative and they will use whatever onset and offset works for them. But I did find a whole load of glottal onsets and offsets from Beyonce. Bless her. So, um, that's a very well known number. Isn't it? It was, yeah, we put it in the show notes maybe. Yes, we will. People can listen. Yeah. I'm I'm gonna show you exactly the point in the, in the video that she does that. So we'll put that in the show notes. And then I found I'm so pleased to find this, uh, Lizzo love what Lizzo does love the singing. Drama. Oh yeah. And, uh, so I was looking for Yodel flip onsets and offsets, and she does, I think, five of them in a row. um, which was in a song called, Cuz I Love You. And it's got such an emotional impact, hasn't it? Oh, absolutely. This was one of the premises of the workshop, not just learning how to do the different onsets for fun and control, but also raising people's awareness that you can use them as emotional cues. Yes. The premise in a way was that I was going to sing a line of a song, keep the line of the song exactly the same as far as I could, but then change the way I started the line and finished the line. So the tone onset and offset at the end. Mm-hmm and I did, um, I just, I just want to say I had a third excerpt, which was wonderful which is a group that I'd never heard of called SouLounge. And the lead singer at that particular recording was Roger Cicero. Who's a German jazz singer. Was a German jazz singer. He's now died. Um, and a song called How Come You Don't Call Me Anymore. And that was really unusual. I was so pleased to find this. It was, um, it was given to me by one of our Accreditation people. Jan, thank you, Jan, Jan Jinkerson. Thank you. Such a great example. And it's a man doing a Yodel flip onset, but what normally happens in a yodel flip is you flip from up to down. So it's her, her it's basically falsetto to chest, or M2 to M1, whichever way you want to describe it. What was unusual about this particular song is that he does it the other way around. So he goes from an M1 to an M2, or a chest to a falsetto. So it was, um, ah, keep and it was so unusual to find it that way around. So, and then after that, he just used virtually every onset known man. Oh, it's a beautiful excerpt, uh, and again, we'll put that in the show notes. If go and listen to this track because it is absolutely wonderful. And, um, give it, do yourself a favor, work out how many different onsets you can spot. Yes. And what you would call them. Yeah. So, um, this, the workshop was basically in three parts. The first part was demonstrating, uh, industry examples. Mm-hmm . Uh, with recordings. The second part was me doing nine different tone onsets and offsets in a row mm-hmm . And I'd given people a handout to say, what is the emotion that, that this does for you? It's very difficult to actually word that question, but it was basically what emotional reaction do you have to the sentence with that onset mm-hmm mm-hmm or that offset. Was it the same as the previous sentence? And in which case put same, if you ever want to hear someone really break down with a fine tooth comb, a different onset and note approach by using the same phrase, but doing it in different ways. Hmm. Um, Jeremy is masterful at it. I was, it was huge fun. So I did nine in a row. And that was, I think that was the thing I was the most nervous about because when you get nervous, you know, you are not quite sure what your voice is gonna do and what's gonna come out. And because I was doing stuff that was so precise, I really needed to be fully on top of what I was doing. Um, so that was part two where I demonstrated and people made notes. And then part three, which was the main part of the workshop was I'm gonna take everybody through how you do, hopefully all nine of the onsets and offsets. And in fact, I finished 10 minutes early. And so we ended up doing combinations as well. So I think I did 11 or 12 altogether. It was quite fun actually, because what happens with, um, these kind of events often? There's, I mean, there were eight concurrent events. Yes. So people can sometimes, you know, move in and out. They'll stay for half the workshop and move out. Yeah. There are group people who came in, I think about halfway through and they very politely went up into the balcony. By the end of this workshop, they were having a party. They were having a party. They were playing around with each other, you know, they were basically rocking out. They were bouncing up up there. It was, uh, it was just such fun. And by the way, that was an extra strain in a way on, on my nerves, because what we discovered, because I was in the main concert hall, which, uh, opened out onto the reception area where we had all the food, we had coffee, we meetings, all sorts of things. Yeah. What I didn't realize until I got there was that whatever was being put on in the concert hall was piped out into the, into the, the main reception area. So everyone could hear what I was doing, cuz we were all on microphone. Well, hopefully that's why they came in. That's why they came in. So they heard what I was doing. So that was huge fun. And, um, we, we actually got through all of them and then I made everybody go through all of them in a row and make comments on them. So that was great fun. And I'm, I'm so pleased that we've done this workshop. That's my first outing of that workshop. Mm-hmm but I have done quite a lot of what we did. Um, most of the tone onsets and offsets are already on the learning. In Best Practice Update. Yeah. And you, you can put a link to that. Can't you can put a link to that specific, yep, video. Unfortunately, we didn't record this workshop. Yeah. But we did record the Best Practice Update presentation, which was a five hour presentation. I think we did. With all sorts of things in it, it was with a large group of people. And when you hear these done chorally, yeah. It's also fascinating because if you do work with ensembles and, and choir groups, you know, quite often people will, will have an onset that they favour. And if you really want a very kind of coherent and coordinated performance, getting people to do the same onset. And in time together, that's a powerful thing. And I have to say, I think onset and offsets are really, really useful to help people change style. Mm. Change style change genre, because so many genres, um, have a particular group of onset or offsets that they love. And, uh, just as a sort of little end view, end note, um, there was somebody sitting on the back row. Uh, and I asked for questions at the end, questions or comments, and he loved what we were doing. Mm-hmm and then he said, but isn't it, doesn't it doesn't it come across as fake when you are basically, you know, telling people to do this mm-hmm. And I said, you know, basically thank you for reminding me because there is one more sentence that I forgot to say, which is I teach people to do all of these onset and it's really precise and really specific. And then once you've got them, make them your own. Mm. And that means they stop becoming fake and they just become part of the massive toolbox that you have as a singer, where you go, oh, I could do that one. Or you don't even do that sometimes, you just make the sounds because that's what singers do. It's also what we do when we speak. Isn't it? Yes. oh, and he was so keen because he's been talking about onsets and offsets in acting. Um, and he, I mean, he basically said to me, I thought I was the only one in the world who was doing this. And then I come to your workshop and you do it all the time. He was very into phonetics and he could see the links between the phonetic literature and, um, this work that we were doing. Yes. Which absolutely gladdened our hearts. Didn't it? Absolutely. So that was my workshop. Um, very relieved to have done it. Mm. Uh, I have to say once we started and I got into working with the audience, that was great. Mm-hmm um, so very happy to do it and very happy to do it again, actually. Yeah, very much so. It's a very powerful workshop, even though it, it looks really straightforward paper mm-hmm So if you want to hear, uh, some of the things that I was doing, I'm sorry, we didn't record the actual workshop, but they are all in the Learning Lounge. Uh, so join the Learning Lounge and go and look at Best Practice Update. And I think it's video 6-9C, something like that. Okay. So nifty little call to action there people, do it. Yeah. Well, let, let's talk about me. Let's talk about your Round Table. Yes. Um, I mean, we said in the previous episode, what a Round Table is, and basically Gillyanne was invited to chair a Round Table, which means she gets to invite whoever she wants. Ooh I could invite people to come and play. It was really, really nice. So the way this Round Table came about was that, um, A couple of years back, cuz PEVoC was delayed by one year. It should have been in 2021. Um, Allan Vurma got in touch with me because he, he wanted some contact names in the UK and he said, if you have any idea, you know, for events or kind of keynotes for us at PEVoC you know, do share them. And I said, I think we need some kind of conversation about the links between voice science and singing voice pedagogy. Yep. And, uh, I sort of naughtily wave the title "Voice Science, Do We Need It?" in front of him and nothing much happened for a while because PEVoC didn't happen. And then eventually I had an email from him and it felt like it was out the blue from him. And Kristel Kalling saying, uh, we'd like you to do this Round Table. Would you consider doing it? And I thought, would I ever! Mm-hmm so the official title is "Voice Science, Do We Need It? Finding meeting points between the science and the craft". So it's a little bit of a softer, you know, subtitle. It's an interesting one, isn't it? Because there is a lot of communication now that didn't used to be mm-hmm between voice scientists and the practitioners, the singing teachers, the Vocal peda... pedagogue s mm-hmm . There is more communication, but what's so fascinating for me is that they do speak entirely different languages. Mm-hmm , mm-hmm. And sometimes there's communication and sometimes there's miscommunication and sometimes people use phraseology that is specific to them that the other person may or may not understand. There's a lot of things going on. Yeah. I mean, in voice science, um, particularly with the hard scientists, it's about controlling variables and of course the singer in the room is a variable for a singing teacher. Yeah. Um, and also in voice science, you know, we define parameters and we, um, will define our terminology. And you will all know if you are a singing teacher or even a voice teacher that people use different words for the same thing. We even use different words for the same thing with individual clients and sometimes the same words means different things. Yeah. I think actually that singing teachers need to be multi-lexical, because we're always working with that individual. If you, if you're gonna be a singing teacher who is client focused, then you need to know what that client, what that singer in front of you uses in the heads. You know, how they describe the sound themselves to, to themselves. And if you listened to our previous podcast episode one from series six, you'll have heard us talking about allan Vurma's keynote. Yeah. And also Johan Sundberg's keynote. And they, both of them touched on this, that some of the words and the terminology and the concepts we have in singing voice pedagogy, actually aren't demonstrable through science. Yes. Or, um, what was found was not what we expected. Yes. And actually you and I loved that didn't we? Oh yeah, absolutely. Yeah. So you invited five people to your Round Table. First of all, tell us who they were. Right. Um, my, um, very much loved colleague in Australia, irene Bartlett Irene, who is head of the voice pedagogy programme at Griffith university. Amazing programme, a unique programme. And she beamed in from Australia. Yeah. Now three people that I put in the hard science department. Um, Nathalie Henrich Bernardoni from France. Nathalie. Allan Vurma from Estonia. Allan was there. Yeah. And Christian Herbst, who I think is from Austria. Christian. Don't kill me if I got this wrong. Kill her. yeah. Austria or Germany. Yeah. And, uh, from Germany, we had what we called our wild card, who was suggested by Allan to kind of represent if you'd like the other camp so that we weren't just, I dunno, preaching from the table that said we love voice science. In fact, that isn't how it panned out anyway. But, um, Kirsten Schötteldreier is very much, um, she's a, a coach and a, a singing teacher and a performance coach. She would describe herself as working, um, transformationally with breath. So transformational breath, work and energy, energy work. Yeah. And actually her work is really super to watch. So I'm not sure if we're able to put a, a link to her social media or something. We'll find something. Um, I was particularly thrilled watching Kirsten's masterclass. And in fact, uh, during the Round Table, she played another video of a masterclass and it was so lovely for me because I saw so much of the work that I do in the work that she does. And that's it's when you see that you get a validation of what you, what you do and who you are mm-hmm . Um, so that was very, I was actually got quite emotional in the Round Table, seeing somebody doing very much what I do, uh, at the level she does it. It was great. So I'm just gonna give, you know, very broad sweeps of headlines from this, um, Irene and I share very similar views. I mean, all of us share very similar views on singing voice pedagogy, Irene comes from a CCM background. She was a jazz singer for decades. She still performs and she's very, very keen, uh, like us actually on voice science and using voice science to underpin what we do intuitively. Um, so that we, we do it better it takes away some of the, the mysterious aspect that we don't need if you like. And she spoke about a personal thing of hers, how learning certain aspects of voice science and clinical understanding of voice, which like us she's very keen on mm-hmm had actually allowed her to find an extra octave in her own singing voice. Mm-hmm. That's when it works really well. Yeah. Yeah. And she also, you know, she talked about, um, two paths, one destination. We're all going after the same thing, and that was very special. And I think the audience really appreciated input from someone who comes from that CCM background. And Irene's own doctoral research is entitled one size doesn't fit all. And she was looking at gigging, CCM commercial, contemporary commercial music singers, or popular musics singers, if you prefer. She was looking at their lives and, and their, their Vocal function. I think one of the things that she came up with, which I thought was particularly striking is that she said it's not really possible to reproduce in the voice science lab, the sort of environment that CCM singers are in all the time. Mm-hmm . So from that point of view, when you're making measurements, there is an element that you can't introduce. Yeah. And I think that's fair. I thought that was a very good point. Mm-hmm and I think, you know, that's paving the way forward for, uh, different ways of, of doing research, which is one of the reasons why I, um, wanted to hold the Round Table at all. That was brilliant that she could just be there while still being in Australia. Yeah. Fantastic. Thank you for that. I. um, and Nathalie Henrich Bernardoni um, basically gave a testimony. That's what she described it. It was a lovely first slide saying this is a testimony where she did some work. And this is ongoing research with an Italian singing teacher called Antonio di Corcia. And, uh, she, this was a report really of work so far that she'd been doing with him. Yeah. On what he called extreme mixing. Standard and extreme. Standard and extreme. Yes. And, you know, it was a beautiful presentation because what people could see, first of all, in his own demonstrations, he was just on video, um, that he was using sounds that we would all recognize as being mainstream in CCM singing mm-hmm and then kudos to Nathalie Henrich, she videoed herself, having a lesson with him by zoom, learning, how to make these sounds herself and, and knocking out Midnight from Cats. Yeah. There was, I mean, there was a palpable atmosphere I felt in the room. I dunno what you felt, Jeremy, at that point, when he gave her a particular instruction to change her sound and I could see people going, yeah, that's what we do. Thank God at last, somebody is looking at it. Yeah. Yeah. And it was so interesting because, um, the way that we mapped it, listening to it, she was doing, um, uh, touch me on an M1 mm-hmm and he was doing it at the same octave on an M2, but the sound was so similar. Yeah. It was very good modeling. It was a nicely adducted M2. Yes. But you know, more on that later. Yes. Because Nathalie is really, really digging into this. And, um, I think there's going to be some very fascinating information about mechanisms 1 and 2 that come out of that, that frankly is much needed. Yeah. Yeah. And, um, and kudos to Nathalie for, for not just putting herself through a singing lesson so that she can find out how to make the sounds herself, yeah, but for videoing it and including it in the presentation. Yeah. And something that I thought was particularly beautiful was that she talked about. In order to understand each other, we need to meet each other in each other's worlds. Yes. I don't think I've worded it quite right, but, but no it's accurate. Yeah. And I think what's so interesting is that you can step into the other person's world. You can't necessarily learn it in the depth that they have it, but you can step into that world and start to understand where they're coming from. I mean, I would say for researchers, if you're going to look at something like that, that feels very much beyond your normal experience and, and maybe beyond the, the existing corpus of research info, you've gotta step into that world. And you singing teachers, you've got to step into the voice science world as well. And to, to do it without fear and have the conversation. Which is actually what this whole Round Table was about. It really was. Let's have the conversation, you know, me, I like to start conversations. Yeah. So, and then we had Christian Herbst. Yes. Oh gosh. What can I say about, I mean, I, I loved the slide that Christian quoted, which was, we're seeking the truth. Yes. When you found the truth. You need to turn away, you need to turn and run away. There's a, it's a famous quote, actually, Jean Piaget I think, or something like that. Yes. Yes. And I do think that's important. And in a way, for me, this is more about a message to.. To the singing pedagogues than the voice scientists. Because voice scientists understand that every research finding is in within a particular framework and there are boundaries to that framework. Whereas what happens with, sometimes I think the singing pedagogues is we get a little bit credulous. We see this wonderful bit of information. like we said in the first episode. Mm-hmm oh, now have we all got to open our nose in or in order to avoid having, uh, gear change breaks? Mm-hmm. No, not necessarily. No. A research finding doesn't necessarily translate yet into a deterministic outcome of something you should be doing in your lesson. But let's take that one stage further. It's for information. Let's take that one stage further. If you go to watch a masterclass of somebody coaching singers and they're coaching singers in the same type of repertoire that you sing. Mm-hmm, just because they say to that one person on the stage, I want you to take a step forwards or whatever it is, does not mean that that is now the rule. That every time you sing that song and that particular phrase, you need to take one step forwards. It doesn't, it doesn't work like that. This is, we are very, very keen on working with the singer in the room. And that means working with the person in front of you. And everybody, when they perform, everybody, when they sing brings their own history, their own skills, their own levels, their own understanding, their own soul that needs to be expressed. And you can't do that in the same way. So I wanna say to all the singing teachers and the singers out there, uh, do not assume that when you see something that works really well, that it applies to you. Cause it may not. And this is where your own personal understanding in your own personal taste and your own awareness comes in. You have to try it on yourself and go, does that actually work for me or not? Yeah. And I think what I'd like to say about Christian is that, I mean, not only has he taught, um, you know, 5,000 hours of teaching, he said he'd done in an earlier life, and he also sings. And clearly you've heard that Nathalie also sings, but that, um, he's kind of able to understand this from the inside out and to understand that it's actually a very complex activity. And, um, I can't talk you through, you know, a, a rather wonderful slide that he shared. It's so dense. I can give you some headings, which is we're dealing as performers with emotion and artistic intent. And what we need is to kind of look at what we, we call a high level, but also holistic pedagogical intervention. We do interventions, that's the word we sometimes use. Um, because what we're dealing with is some kind of targeted sound production. You know, we, as teachers, we're dealing with the outcome, we need the knowledge to know what that intervention might be. Yes. What can we, and holistic is good. What can we say to the singer that will enable them to get to the sound, the, feel, the emotion, the expression that they want? And I think there was something that struck me very much about what Christian said. And he said, he talked about this, um, first level, which is high level holistic pedagogical intervention mm-hmm , which is basically what instructions can the singing teacher give to the singer to get 'em to the place the singer wants to be mm-hmm and he said, if that works, we can stop there. Yes, he did, I remember. That's it. That's all we need. It's when that doesn't work, um, and you've tried different, more forms of communication, but you still can't get the singer there. That's when the voice science really comes in and goes, okay, what's happening? Mm-hmm what is it that you need to do? What is it that we think we have to do? What's the target? Can we now analyze what's going on? And then come up with some different things that are gonna work. And that underpins very much our approach and Irene's approach. Very much. I mean, this is the thing for me and it's possibly, because you know, Gillyanne is a singing teacher. I'm a voice coach. So we all already, we come from two slightly different backgrounds and understandings of how voice and performance works. So when you then bring a third person in who is voice science based, all three of us have skills and levels of understanding that the other doesn't and you bring those all three of those together and you've got something very powerful. Mm-hmm . So, I'm gonna talk a little bit about our wild card Kirsten. Thank you for being our wild card. Yes. And also if you get to listen to this, thank you for the many fascinating conversations that we had about the voice. Kirsten. I think very sensibly, uh, just after a couple of moments introduction played for us a video that she'd got, which, uh, showed how she works with singers, how she works with the orchestra and how she works with the audience. And it was very clear from the way that she worked, that it was about energy, about individual energy, about the energy between the singer and whoever is collaborating with them. And about the energy between the performers on stage and the audience. And that was a really, You said you nearly cried? No, I didn't nearly cry. I actually did cry. Okay. It is very unusual for me to be that moved by something that I see, um, just on a video. And it was because she works with energy in the same way that I do. Um, and honestly it. Because we'd seen her already work with, uh, 4 singers in a masterclass. And that was really fascinating watching the goals that she was getting to in the way that she was getting people to do them. And one of the big things, if you like in, when I was listening and I was analyzing what was going on, she is very acute on imbalance so that somebody would be singing and it was all classical Arias. Somebody would be singing, um, Ach ich Fuhl's from Mozart's Die Zauberflöte, Pamina's aria. And. But working her voice too hard. And so, um, Kristen went a very interesting and unusual way to get her to rebalance what she was doing and it worked and it was so much better. And it was, this was really interesting cuz we'd seen her work with singers, but in that video, in your Round Table, mm-hmm we saw her work with the orchestra mm-hmm to get them in balance with the singer. And then she worked with the audience and I just went dream job. Mm-hmm I would love to do that. There was a very strong response from the audience to that, and we do need that side of things. And, you know, lots of us are using things where, you know, we, we move our arms around, we do physical things. We have Front foot and back foot. Lots of people use circles. Um, Kirsten uses balls a lot to find energy and do coordination and everything to do with breathing. She and I had a conversation about this. Everything to do with breathing and music is rhythm. Oh, yes. So, um, absolutely. Yeah. And so it was wonderful to have that and, you know, kudos to Kirsten for sitting there, listening to these more kind of pedagogical, you know, discussions and then kind of more up from the hard science side and going, yeah. But I have something to contribute here. I think actually she loved, Christian's a very complicated slide. Didn't she? She did. She did. She was taking pictures of it. I thought she had a very difficult job because essentially she was in a room full of people going we love voice science. And she doesn't really use it. Or if she does, she doesn't use it in the same with everybody else in the room did, and I was watching her, listening to the other people talking and I'm thinking she's, she's having a tough time. Um, listening to, to all of the, sort of the, yeah, this is amazing thing. And when she stood up, I thought, how is she going to tackle this? She did such a good job of including everything and stating that there is something else there. Hmm, love that. And, you know, I think I, this is a little bit of kudos to me. I think one of the reasons why this worked is that, um, I spent a lot of time generating questions, sending out ideas, asking people if they would send their presentations in advance so we could all see them. And we also all met the day before the conference and Irene beamed in remotely, you know, from Brisbane and. I knew it needed to be an energetic exchange as well. It needed to be a meeting of minds and that it wasn't gonna be enough that we were just all gonna go up there and present our paper and do our expertise because we wouldn't be able to really get the conversation going. And I felt very strongly about this. And actually we've had, well you cuz I wasn't involved. You've had some phenomenal feedback and you've had some great feedback from the other speakers. All of whom have said, this must be written up mm-hmm you must write this up because this is important. Mm. And now we mustn't forget the final, um, discussant in, in the panel, which was Allan Vurma himself. Yes. Yes. Um, and I think inspired by some of the stuff he'd heard us saying about our personal journeys. Um, Allan shared a bit more about his dual lives as, uh, an engineer and, a singer and, and talked about, this is quite interesting about the difficulties of being raised when Estonia was under Russian occupation, I suppose, or part, part of the USSR and being very difficult to get hold of any pedagogical books that weren't Russian. And he had an opportunity to come to London. I think perhaps when he was working as a choir singer and he said, he'd spent almost a month's wages on Johan Sundberg's Science of the Singing Voice, because it was so fascinating. And I think that was another one of the things that kickstarted Allan's journey. Mm. He had a couple of things that I thought were very important, which was to say, you know, when we're looking at science, we're only looking at models and, and that humans, all humans make models of our world so that we can survive. Yes. Because there's so much input, and that we need to understand that in science, we're working with models and that, that it doesn't represent the whole experience. Mm, this is an ongoing theme. And I think again, there was another like, you know, bit of a sigh in the audience saying, yes, this is true. Yes. Um, and I, I really liked that he reiterated that and he also talked about, should we be using voice science in our teaching? It's not so much should, but when. And how. Yep, totally with that. Yeah. So great, great question. Totally with that. And there was something that he said towards the end. First of all, he said, sometimes even scientific models are wrong. Hurray, we know this. Mm-hmm and the singer and or voice teacher cannot trust science 100%. We also know this. Yeah. Uh, there was something that I came up with and I actually wrote it down almost on the first day of the, the divide between the singer and the voice. Uh, the sing, the singer voice teacher and the voice scientist. Mm. Uh, and then we were talking about what to believe if you like. And I wanted to say to the voice scientists acknowledge the experience of the singing teacher, but don't listen to the language they use. Don't take it on trust. And then, because they, they can do it. They understand it, but they don't necessarily describe it in concrete terms. And also I wanted to say to the singing teachers, Understand that the voice science has a very specific usage and a very specific focus that is within each paper. Mm. And that what you read in a conclusion of a paper will not apply across the board. Mm. And I thought it was really interesting because I think Gillyanne, and I sit on right on that interface between, we are both practicing voice teachers, Vocal coaches, we do the work, but we also sit in the voice science camp as well. Uh, and I thought that was, it's a really interesting place to be because that is a real crossover point. Yes. And that just brings me to why I chose the people that I chose. Nice. Which was both Irene Bartlett and I have a foot in both camps were on the coal face. We're working with singers, we're working with teachers and we have both engaged in doctoral research. So we understand what research is. I wouldn't describe myself as a voice scientist and I don't think Irene would either, but we are both researchers. And that helps us to understand the framework of research. Absolutely. And we're both fans of using the research to underpin what we do and get more and be more informed. We also both recognize the limitations of research. At its best it gives you a deeper understanding mm mm. At its worst it just gets in the way. And I invited Nathalie and Christian and Allen because I knew first of all, that all of them sang or had taught or were still teaching. Allan is still teaching. um, and I knew that they were all active in disseminating voice science information to the community so that they, they had a real interest in having this conversation. And then once Allan had proposed Kirsten to me and I was a little bit trepidatious to begin with, but I went on online and I had a look at one of her YouTube videos and I thought, oh, Qigong, Tai Chi. Oh, right. Okay. I recognize that. Yes. And also if you watch any of Kirsten's stuff, it's a dynamic personality and I thought this lady is going to hold her own. She will be a brilliant person in the conversation. And I think it's, it was that, the joint energy that we brought that made it such a success. And I'm so grateful to my co discussants because, um, it actually was an amazing first Round Table chair experience for me. And as Jeremy said, the feedback we've had is phenomenal and not just from the singing teachers also from the voice scientists. So, so the question is, would we do it again? What, a voice conference? For sure, absolutely. Such a great experience. And how can they do it again? Oh, PEVoC PEVoC 15, which will be in 2024, uh, was announced on the last day. Yeah. And PEVoC24.com. P E V O C 2 0 2 4 dot com. Mm-hmm uh, is the website to go to and we are going to be in Santander in Northern Spain. September 2024. Yeah. And the conference centre, I think is about a hundred meters from the beach. It is. It is. Yes. Sounds good to me. Yep. Sounds good to me. So we'll be there. Yeah. And that'll be, that'll be, you won't have broken your, your run since 2003. No, I have no intention of breaking my run. So, um, what we are saying is if you see a voice conference like this, go, because it is an extraordinary experience. Mm-hmm, take care of yourself while you are there, because it is also a smack in the face of information. Mm-hmm um, but enjoy yourself, meet people, talk to people, get connections. Yeah, you're gonna grow. Oh, and we didn't give the title. Oh, the title for, um, PEVoC15 is Voice Moves The World. Isn't that lovely? Yes. So that's it. Okay. We're done. And we will see you next time. Bye. Byebye. This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This is a voice.