The most efficient ways to practise, plus finding your place in the world

What's the most efficient way to practice? And how can you set up your singing students to practise successfully? Jeremy's been doing it for years but we had it confirmed by Kittie Verdolini Abbott at our latest conference - Jeremy talks Variable Practice!
Gillyanne shares how she collected a multi-disciplinary team for her Round Table conversation at UEP in Turkey on voice problems, boundaries and vocal challenges.
Things you need to tell a surgeon if you're having surgery of any kind.
And why we do CPD AND why we offer it to other singers and teachers.
Oh, and Jeremy learned a new term - marsupialising!

Part 2 of 2

0:00 Introduction
0:35 "It was good when I did it at home" - Variable versus constant practice 
2:48 Bringing variable practice into your singing studio
5:35 Gillyanne's panel - My Singer Has A Voice Problem
8:28 What a singing teacher should never do
12:01 Leave it in their hands
13:34 Why a "qualification" may not mean what you think
15:05 What you need to tell your voice surgeon
15:56 Medical jargon and marsupialising
17:00 Expanding your horizons - professional development
17:57 Our CPD - The Deep Dive
19:25 Our CPD - 12 Hours to Better Singing Teaching
20:34 Our CPD - The Accreditation Programme
22:05 The process to Accreditation


Kittie Verdolini Abbott's article on how singers learn is here https://learningmethods.com/downloads/pdf/verdolini--principles.of.skill.acquisition.pdf

Jeremy's video on breaking down the concepts in Kittie's article is here https://youtu.be/utNmfLG8A0w

We teach multiple onsets/offsets in the online course Best Practice Update, part of the Learning Lounge Deep Dive. Here's a free preview of the hover breath going into the smooth onset - check it out! https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/courses/learning-lounge-l2-deep-dive/lectures/30620222

And here's the link to the Learning Lounge Essentials and Deep Dive https://vocalprocess.co.uk/learning-lounge/

Here's the link to the new International Association of TransVoice Surgeons https://transvoicesurgeons.com/

We've also got this! ↓
For real 1-1 attention on your own voice, book a voice coaching session in the singing studio with Jeremy or Gillyanne
https://DrGillyanneKayesJeremyFisherInspirationSession.as.me/

The 12 Hours to Better Singing Teaching course online, with voice coaching techniques, vocal articulation exercises and a LOT more for the up-to-date singing teacher is here https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/12-hours-to-better-singing-teaching

For the best self-guided learning, check out the Vocal Process Learning Lounge - 22 years of vocal coaching resources (over 600 videos) for less than the price of one private singing lesson. Click  on the link and choose a Level
https://vocalprocess.co.uk/learning-lounge/

If you want to discover if our singing teacher training programme works for YOU, message us - we can share the process for joining Cohort23.

Sign up for the Vocal Process newsletter https://vocalprocess.co.uk/news-and-media/freebies/

Get the One Minute Voice Warmup app here, it's got a 4.9star rating
Appstore https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/one-minute-voice-warmup/id1212802251
Google Play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=co.speechtools.warmup&hl=en_GB 

Check out our brand new Voice Journal, written with Rayvox's Oren Boder 
https://www.rayvox.co.uk/products/voice-journal?ref=VOCALPROCESS

Find us - follow us on the socials!
🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/Vocalprocess
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📖 Facebook - https://www.facebook.com/vocalprocess 


#thisisavoice #vocalcoach #singingteacher #voice #vocalhealth #voicetraining #professionaldevelopment #CPD

Transcript

Jeremy Fisher: 0:11

This is a Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. Hello and welcome to This is Voice Season seven, episode eight,

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 0:25

the podcast where we get Vocal about voice.

Jeremy Fisher: 0:28

I'm Jeremy Fisher.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 0:29

And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes.

Jeremy Fisher: 0:30

And we're back on professional development, so we're just gonna jump straight in. Okay. Well, the opposite of variable practice is when you are in a room and you do your song and you sing it through, and you sing it through and you sing it through, and you sing it through and you sing it through, and that's your practice. The opposite of that is variable practice, which is. You take a small phrase and you work that you then change song. Mm-hmm. And you work a small phrase in that song, and then you could go to a third song and you do that, and then you come back to the original song. Or you take an aspect of what you're doing, like, I'm going to elongate all the M'S in this song. Mm-hmm. And you do a version of that and then you just change song and you do the same thing also, Variable practice involves doing it in different rooms.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 1:17

Mm-hmm. Change your environment.

Jeremy Fisher: 1:19

Change the environment. I mean, that can be as simple as stay in the same room, but face a different wall. Mm-hmm. It can be as straightforward as that do the same thing. Close your eyes. Do the same thing. Put headphones on.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 1:31

I I was just gonna say, put headphones on. Yeah.

Jeremy Fisher: 1:33

Yeah. Anything that will change what you do. What is so fascinating is that when you do, and I've forgotten what the opposite of variable practice is, but when you do the opposite version where you just repeat, what will happen happen is that you are in, your brain is embedding that this is how it sounds and this is how it feels in this room, in this environment, in this acoustic, in this temperature. And the moment you change any of those, mm-hmm. all the learning that you did in that room, out the window. And the reason that variable variable practice, if you like, is so useful is that you automatically build in that you can do that thing in different environments.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 2:15

You know, Jeremy, I think this is why I'm sure any singing teacher listening will have heard this phrase, "but it was all right when I did it at home". Yes. It was all right when they did it at home, because now with you, they're in a different environment. Yeah. So the best thing they can do is go and sing it in different rooms in the house. Sing it at different times of day. Yeah. Sing it when they haven't warmed up. Yeah. See what happens. I think in speech and language therapy, it's called generalizing the skill.

Jeremy Fisher: 2:48

Absolutely. And it, it made me think only yesterday, it made me think about this and it made me think about people who run a singing studio. So you have 20, 30, 40, 50 students, and if you are doing it always in the same arena, always in the same studio, they all come in the same order. They come in at the same time of day, all of that, which is fairly standard for a, for a singing studio. Then what you are doing is that you are embedding what they can do in that room, and it made me think of the use of organizing, either little concerts where they're in a different environment with an audience, or even hiring a different room and getting people together and doing a concert or, or a, sing through, if you like, just in front of their peers because again, you are doing something that takes them away from their quotes, "safe space" with you. Really interesting idea that you put them in different environments. Mm. Hmm I've done this for years as a pianist. I've done this for years as straightforward as sometimes I play the grand piano and sometimes I play the digital keyboard and I will move from one to the other I will often do, I'll play through something just to get an overview of where I am and then break stuff down. I'll start at the end and go backwards. I'll do a pro, a program in a different order. So we'll top and tail backwards I'll play the beginning, the end and the beginning, and then the end of the beginning of the previous one, and the end of the beginning of the previous one. So you are constantly moving, shifting the goals around. And then, sometimes I'll hire a studio with a completely different piano and a completely different acoustic to do the same thing.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 4:27

Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

Jeremy Fisher: 4:28

So it was really interesting, so much of what Kittie was saying I thought that's really good. You know, I do that already. I,

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 4:36

I do this.

Jeremy Fisher: 4:38

And it was interesting because I didn't, you know, it's like, you don't read about this stuff. I've done it for years because mm-hmm. I've had to be so efficient because I'm a collaborative pianist and I'm working with multiple people. Mm-hmm. And I'm doing multiple programs

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 4:53

and sometimes the piano is crap, and sometimes it's a keyboard. Yes. Sometimes the pedals don't work. Yes.

Jeremy Fisher: 4:59

Sometimes the keys stick while you're playing. I mean, I can count on the fingers of one hand how many times I've had a piano that has been stunning. And that's not been in a few years. Mm-hmm. So, yeah, it's you just, that's, I'm so used to building programs really, really fast, learning stuff really fast that I have to get it up to a performance pitch very, very quickly. Mm-hmm. That I will, br I sort of learned to bring in all of these different rehearsal types in order to make it embed really quickly.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 5:30

I suppose we should talk a little bit about my panel session.

Jeremy Fisher: 5:34

Yes.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 5:35

Anybody who's been following our podcasts will know that, I am very passionate about helping singers when they hit a voice problem. And so my panel session was called My Singer has a Voice Problem, Dilemmas of the Singing Studio. Yep. And what I wanted to do was to get together a multidisciplinary team of people, so including phoniatricians, an slp. There were two SLPs there, one of whom was a phoniatrician, and two singing teachers, myself and Jale Papilla of the,

Jeremy Fisher: 6:14

it's the Voice Centre in Hamburg. Yeah.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 6:16

Voice Centre Hamburg. We'll put the correct links in Medical Voice Centre. Medical Voice Centre. So sorry. Medical Voice Centre. It's because you changed your name a couple of years ago. And, professor Dr. Bernhard Richter of the Freiburg Institute of Musical Performance Research, who I think is one of the world's leading experts on dynamic MRI. Yes. So if you've ever been online and you've seen little snippets from video called Die Stimme

Jeremy Fisher: 6:48

Yeah. Which in fact we have here.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 6:50

Yeah. That was produced by the Freiburg Institute. Yes. So why did I want a multidisciplinary team? Well, the reason's very simple because if your client does hit a voice problem, either a muscle tension dysphonia or they have a Vocal injury such as a haemorrhage or a, you know, they have pathology, like a cyst or a polyp, then you are going to need to make an interface with the medical profession. And the way that you manage that, actually it must be managed quite carefully because actually you don't have any right to that information as a singing teacher. And although your, your student may well want to show you all the videos that they had in the Voice clinic, you know, GDPR and all of that. So there are lots of boundaries. Safety boundaries there that need to be navigated. And to say nothing of the challenges that both Jale and myself talked about dealing with employment and management and so forth, when a singer hits a voice problem, because there's still this massive culture of shame. Mm-hmm. Around us hitting a voice problem, which is completely different. You know, if an athlete has an injury, do people point the finger of shame? No, they don't, Hmm. but they do in the singing profession. So We spoke a lot about scope of practice, limitations of practice, singing teachers not overstepping the mark.

Jeremy Fisher: 8:28

Can I just say one thing here? Mm-hmm. I don't care if you're a singing teacher and you have had 25 years of experience, I don't care how much you have sat in the voice studio, I don't care how good your ears are, and I don't care how good your eyes are either, you are not to diagnose

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 8:46

you do not diagnose,

Jeremy Fisher: 8:47

you do not diagnose medical things. It is not your field.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 8:51

Mm. And we also, I mean, that's a whole ethical dilemma there. And to be fair, I have had more than one singer come to me and say, what do you think is wrong?

Jeremy Fisher: 9:00

Sure. Yeah. And, and the answer is I can't diagnose.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 9:04

And that's because of the trust that there is between the singer and the singing teacher. And that leads me to say that it's true. There are sometimes things that we spot because of the way that we work with an individual. Mm-hmm. Uh, long term. And for a longer period of time than most speech and language therapy sessions. There are things that we will spot that perhaps the therapist may not spot. And I have actually had that situation and, Tori presented about it, didn't she? And I got acknowledged. It was nice. My name was actually on slide.

Jeremy Fisher: 9:39

I think the really interesting thing about that is, is because the singing teacher will probab, well, well, not probably, but certainly spend more time with the singer than anybody else on the team. And so we'll be very familiar with that person's voice, the, and therefore we'll maybe able to spot patterns or trends that weren't there before. This, that my statement still stands. You cannot diagnose. You are not qualified to diagnose. What you do is you then refer back to the medical team to say, look, I think there's something going on here, and it's this, and the medical team will then investigate as to whether that's appropriate or not.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 10:15

And a good. Team, you know, a good SLP, SLT and a good laryngologist, they want that information. So it's just the way you deal with it. I think another thing I learned from this, you know, like most patients, we want a diagnosis. Yes. It makes us feel safe. Yeah. And one of the things that we learned from this panel and also other presentations is, if perhaps your, your medico or laryngologist doesn't quite know what it is that's happened. It doesn't mean they're crap.

Jeremy Fisher: 10:52

No.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 10:53

It means that sometimes the pattern isn't yet clear and more than one medic talked about. Mm-hmm. Sometimes you don't know exactly what's going on until you get in there,

Jeremy Fisher: 11:05

and that's in surgery.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 11:07

Yep. And that actually happened with, you know, in our last two podcasts we talked about Kate Bassett going through surgery. Mm-hmm. There was one aspect of, what she went through in her surgery that the surgeon had not been able to see until she was actually under anaesthetic, and you could get right in there.

Jeremy Fisher: 11:27

Well, there was more than one example on the conference where somebody presented with a particular set of symptoms and we saw the The endoscopy video. Yeah.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 11:35

And the Stroboscopy

Jeremy Fisher: 11:35

and the Stroboscopy And they're going, well, you know, this looks like this. But once we got her into the surgery, what happened was that this was there, but it was actually, there was something else underneath it. So this thing that, that they were going into surgery for was covering up something else. And it was impossible even for the surgeons to find out. Until they actually got in there and started working on the Vocal folds themselves. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Really fascinating.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 12:00

And I also took away from this session that maybe sometimes if you are working with, you know, high level laryngologist, you, you have to go just leave it in their hands. Mm-hmm. Because they do know what they're doing. That's what they did all their training for. Mm-hmm. And it's not about like, oh, I'm the one who knows, I'm in a powerful situation and you are not. It's more about judgment, you know? How much does the singer need to know about the nitty gritty? Because if the person concerned is convinced that they can do something about it, maybe in that moment in time the most important thing is to reassure the singer and say, yes, we've seen this sort of thing. Oh, there's another moment. Hmm. Bernhard Richter said, every month they have a Vocal fold haemorrhage. That's how

Jeremy Fisher: 12:53

That's not one person. That's people who arrive in the studio. This one person in the world who just has a haemorrhage every month.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 13:00

They have, it's not a female thing. They see someone with a Vocal fold haemorrhage every month and from different performing backgrounds.

Jeremy Fisher: 13:12

Yeah.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 13:13

So sometimes you do have to leave it in their hands. That said, there is nothing wrong, you know, if you do need surgery in getting a second opinion. Mm-hmm. I would always recommend that Mm-hmm. if you need surgery

Jeremy Fisher: 13:25

Yeah. Well, I mean really what we're talking about is communication between the team.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 13:30

Oh, and I just want to say something else as well. I don't think it applied to anybody who was on my panel, but Kittie Verdolini Abbott did point out because she was, presenting as well and contributing to the panel from the American perspective, just because someone has the words SLP or SLT after their name doesn't mean they know anything about voice. I know because they may.

Jeremy Fisher: 13:54

How bizarre is that?

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 13:55

I know they may have completely different specialisms. Yes. You know, such as swallowing. Yeah. Or, and even if they do know a bit about voice, that it doesn't mean that they know about singing. Yes. And that's really where our role comes in. Yes. And I personally think the, more, the more we can strengthen these interfaces Yeah the better. Which is one of the reasons why you and I go to conferences like this. Yes. Okay. Very. That's a long report. Yeah.

Jeremy Fisher: 14:23

I just wanna say one of the things that interested me from the surgeon's perspective is I think this perspective has changed over, over the decades. The thing that I came away with from most people who were talking was respect the lamina propria. Mm-hmm. It's like the basic thing now is that if you can keep the lamina propria of your Vocal folds intact, then you can pretty much do most things underneath it.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 14:48

All will be well.

Jeremy Fisher: 14:49

And, and all will still be well. And I thought that was really interesting. I think that's a, that's a new thing

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 14:55

because that's the level that makes contact, isn't it?

Jeremy Fisher: 14:58

Mm-hmm. And actually what what was said was, if you respect the lamina propria, the function and the healing will be okay. Mm-hmm. Which is very interesting. I also knew, oh, and by the way, anaesthesia is the, one of the most important things. If you get the anaesthesia right, again, that things will go very, very smoothly. If you are a singer and you are going into surgery, let the surgeon know because it's very important that they get the anaesthetic right for you.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 15:24

And are you talking about laryngeal surgery here or are you talking about any surgery?

Jeremy Fisher: 15:28

Any surgery. Mm-hmm. Actually, I mean, laryngeal surgery will have its own things, but any surgery, and that's, if you have to have intubation mm-hmm. Which is to have the anaesthetic tube put down your throat, you need to let the surgeon and the anaesthetist know beforehand.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 15:41

Because for many operations there's the option of using the laryngeal mask. Yes. Which is what I . When I had my heart procedure. Yes. So no tubes being thrust through the Vocal fold.

Jeremy Fisher: 15:55

Thank you. I also learned, I didn't know. Oh yeah. I love jargon. I love that every, every career has its own jargon and I do really well, mostly on the medical jargon. There was, I didn't know that you could marsupialise a retention cyst. That was a brand new word on me and I loved it. I wrote it down. So, and also there was something they kept talking about rp.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 16:16

Are you going to tell 'em what marsupialising is?

Jeremy Fisher: 16:19

No.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 16:20

Okay,

Jeremy Fisher: 16:20

look it up. It's basically, it's making a pocket but they, and they kept talking about RP and people who had rp and I was thinking, well that's received pronunciation in my language. What has that got to do with it? Mm-hmm. And it, it's actually not RP at all. It, I think it's ARRP, which, and it's to do with papilloma, which are little growths that happen. And so it's actually quite a serious thing. Mm-hmm. But every time they mentioned rp and I'm thinking, why are people talking about rp? So it's really interesting that that jargon has different meanings when you are talking to different careers. So expanding your horizons, professional development. It's actually why we do, we still do it's professional development,

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 17:11

but it's also why we do what we do.

Jeremy Fisher: 17:14

Well we offer professional development as well. Yeah. This is the thing about the thing that we really got from the conference is the amount of sharing and the amount of advice and the amount of experience that was in the room, because experience cannot be gained unless you experience. It's one of those really weird things. Mm-hmm. You can't learn experience from a book. No. You can't learn experience from another teacher. You can't learn experience by thinking about it. Mm-hmm. You can only learn experience by doing it. Mm-hmm. And I think what's so fascinating is once you've done it, you have an insight into what you've done that you can then share and then people have an approach to when they experience it.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 17:55

So what's on our CPD table at the moment? We have quite a smorgasboard of things, don't we?

Jeremy Fisher: 18:01

We do, and it sort of depends what people need. And we actually have a very wide range of things. The thing I'm gonna start with is the Deep Dive. Mm this is the Learning Lounge Deep Dive. And, and this has well over 600 videos in it going back 20 years, I think. Mm-hmm. And that has, it covers so much so we have. Spreadsheets. We have a terrible thing to start with because it's so unsexy,

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 18:26

spreadsheets of repertoire,

Jeremy Fisher: 18:27

but basically it's repertoire lists that you can download and videos of courses. We have videos of explanations. We have, you know, videos of us doing stuff. Videos of master classes.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 18:38

There's also study notes. There's reflection study notes after many of the training offerings that are are there in the Deep Dive.

Jeremy Fisher: 18:46

And the point of the Deep Dive is really that you can dive in for a month Mm-hmm. and then stop, or you can carry on and trust me, there is a lot more than a month's worth of stuff.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 18:55

Well, you could have a month and binge and we have seen people do that. We have, or you could take your time and do you know, a little bit of embedding and processing for yourself, trying stuff out.

Jeremy Fisher: 19:06

I mean, we recommend that that basically you spend six months in the Deep Dive because you will learn so much from it.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 19:12

Yeah. And we have got more things in the pipeline. So we're about,

Jeremy Fisher: 19:17

we're about to add another course to the Deep Dive.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 19:20

We're not gonna tell you,

Jeremy Fisher: 19:20

we're not gonna tell you what it is. Yes.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 19:23

We also have, some people will already know about the 12 Hours To Better Singing Teaching. Yeah. But we've recently released 12 More Hours To Better Singing Teaching.

Jeremy Fisher: 19:33

Yes.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 19:34

And there's a whole unit there on dealing with voice problems in singing where I talk about two clients of mine, one who had a muscle tension dysphonia, and, several actually. And the other who needed to have surgery and how I helped unpick what was going on with the muscle tension dysphonia. Mm-hmm. And how I helped both singers back to full Vocal health. Mm-hmm. And that's just the thing that many of us singing teachers need to know. And I, I think you'll find it a, a really super unit on the course.

Jeremy Fisher: 20:09

What is so interesting now about the 12 hours, 12 Hours and 12 More Hours To Better Singing Teaching is that that is the first part of our teacher Accreditation Programme.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 20:18

It's the first two steps, isn't it?

Jeremy Fisher: 20:20

Yeah. Yeah. And in fact, you can do step one, which is the 12 Hours and stop, or you can go onto the 12 More Hours and stop. Once you've done that, you go onto the Accreditation Gateway. Mm-hmm. And then once you've done that, you are on the Accreditation Programme. And, the, we just wanna talk briefly about the Accreditation Programme. We, we are halfway through the second run now of the new version. We're about to start the third one later this year. Yes. What we provide in that is basically, it's a very strong community. It is really what we saw in the conference, but on a much longer term scale so that people are finding out, they're not just improving their singing teaching, and building their studios, but they're actually changing their lives, and it's a very powerful thing to say. Mm-hmm. But we have so many of the participants from Cohort 21 who are now doing things that they would never have dreamed of doing. Yeah. before they started the course.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 21:16

If people look out on Facebook and on Instagram, and also on YouTube. Yeah. First of all, you can see a series of interviews that we did with what we call cohort 21 to 22. Mm-hmm. During their training. And, you know, if you want to get a flavour of what it was like for them, go and. You know, have a look at some of those. But also, what we're doing now is we're sort of featuring our Registered Teachers. Mm-hmm. And a few of them have been featured on Instagram, and it's amazing to see what they're doing. Now, of course, you know, they're doing their own social media. They're getting out there, they're building their own stables, and, and it's just been. I mean, honestly, it's a joy to see where they are. Almost one year on.

Jeremy Fisher: 22:03

And, and one of the things that we do quite apart from sharing information and taking them through processes and techniques and, and, you know, watching them build their own teaching stuff there are two things that we do. One is career mentoring. Mm. And one is, Working out what their main values are. Those two are very, very closely linked. If you know what your values are, then it's much easier to build those into what you do, and it makes your life so much easier, so much more productive, and it feels like you are on track. Mm-hmm. And I think this is across the board with people that we are working with now they're going, I feel like I'm on track. Mm-hmm. I feel like I know I'm doing. Mm-hmm. And quite often they'll stay in singing teaching, but they will change their focus of what they're doing. Or they'll change the clientele of the studio, or they'll raise their game in some way. And we've just, I think it was yesterday, had one of the cohort 21 post on putting her fees up.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 23:02

So Registered Teacher. Okay. All the cohort 21 people are now Registered Teachers. Yes. Go and check them out on the website. Our lovely website. Yes. You can read about each of them. There's 19 of them all together. Yep. Yeah. Yes, she shared a whole process of how she put her fees up, YAY!

Jeremy Fisher: 23:20

And I'm so pleased because that was one of our mentoring sessions. That was one of our mentoring sessions with me. Mm-hmm. On how you build a studio and how you build your career in different areas. And she has a lot of strings that she has she's expert in and and qualified in. So it was pulling all of those strings together and going, drop that, do this, focus on that, push this. It was really fascinating. So the process is 12 Hours, 12 More Hours. The Gateway course and the Accreditation Programme. And want to say we have had quite a few people who have emailed us and said, well, I'm a very experienced teacher. I don't need to do the 12 Hours. Can I just come straight in on the Accreditation Gateway? Yes, you do. And the answer is no, you can't. Mm-hmm. End off. Full stop. No.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 24:05

Yes, you do need to do them. Yes. No, you can't. You can't leave out a stage.

Jeremy Fisher: 24:08

No shortcuts. Yep. And there's a very good reason for it. We have had people on the 12 Hours course who have been teaching for 40 years and who are headliners in their own country. Mm. And they come on the course and they go, wow.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 24:21

They still get, they still learn stuff. Stuff out of it. Yeah.

Jeremy Fisher: 24:26

So, It builds. The whole thing builds. And in fact, if you did come in in the, in the Gateway course, you would be lost. With the way that we work. It's very carefully built up from the very beginning. Uh, you don't have to be a beginner teacher to do the 12 Hours. In fact, we prefer if you are not. We prefer if you are an experienced teacher. Yeah. I mean,

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 24:47

minimum of three years.

Jeremy Fisher: 24:48

minimum of Three years.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 24:49

Otherwise you won't get it

Jeremy Fisher: 24:50

much better if you've had 10 because you, you'll appreciate what it is that we're doing and where we're aiming you.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 24:56

And I think what's very interesting about the teachers who have been approaching us for the accreditation, very typically, they have already been working for 10 years. Mm-hmm. And they are now hungry for more. Mm-hmm. They know they need to learn more.

Jeremy Fisher: 25:09

I think this is the thing Mm-hmm. when you, when you are teaching, and it can be a very closed system when you are teaching because you are constantly giving out to your students Mm-hmm. and you're constantly giving out. If you work in a school, you're constantly giving out to the school. One of the things that Accreditation really does well, Is it says now is your turn to receive. Mm-hmm. Now is your turn to grow. Now is your turn to embed. And the thing that I feel very strongly about is we do not say to you, oh, you know nothing, you've got to start again. Absolutely not. You are already an experienced teacher. You already know what you're doing. You may not know everything that you're doing or you may do stuff and you don't know why it works, but that's what you're there on the Accreditation for. Mm.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 25:53

I think we've said enough about the Accreditation for Now,

Jeremy Fisher: 25:55

I think we have too.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 25:56

yeah. There'll be more about this in the future. Yes look out on Instagram and on Facebook, because I'm gonna be talking about, the Accreditation Programme and what its value has been for the people who've taken it so far, but I think we have unpacked enough about our very happy experience of being stretched.

Jeremy Fisher: 26:19

Yes. We will put all sorts of links up in the show notes for you. I wrote an article on one of, Kittie Verdolini Abbott's papers.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 26:27

Yes, you did.

Jeremy Fisher: 26:28

Which is on YouTube. Mm-hmm. In fact, the article and the video that I then did about it on YouTube.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 26:32

Yeah. Lovely.

Jeremy Fisher: 26:33

Okay. And so that's that. We'll give you all the links that we've been talking about and, we will see you next time. Thank you very much for listening. Mm-hmm. Bye.

Dr Gillyanne Kayes: 26:42

Bye-Bye.

Jeremy Fisher: 26:55

This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.