Dr Gillyanne Kayes & Jeremy Fisher reveal more stories behind the stories on their vocal technique books. This episode focuses on two extremes written at the same time - the Singing Express series for children and the Oxford Handbook of Singing for academics.
How we found our writing voice for each audience
Behind the scenes on creating and filming Singing Express
Collaborative writing (and why it took us 16 years to really make it work between us)
Working with a team of composers and arrangers for songs in different genres
The four stages of pitch matching in children (and some adults)
Why we chose to write songs of just a seventh in range
The biggest differences between writing for children and academics
Writing song transcriptions for the Oxford Handbook of Singing (Jessye Norman and LeAnn Rimes)
Four Stages of Pitch Matching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFqfVpU8_4w&feature=youtu.be
The Singing Express books and songbooks 1-4 https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=singing+express&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
The Oxford Handbook of Singing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Handbook-Singing-Library-Psychology/dp/0199660778
Amazing Grace transcriptions https://vocalprocess.co.uk/what-is-music-anyway/
How To Sing Legato https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Sing-Legato-Practical-exercises-ebook/dp/B07CP4SXT3/
Professional Development Webinars 1-18 are now all available in the Learning Lounge for less than the price of one singing lesson https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/the-vocal-technique-learning-lounge
Download your free Build Your Own Tilting Larynx template on https://vocalprocess.co.uk/build-your-own-tilting-larynx
Vocal Process Online Singing Teacher Training is now the 12 Hours to Better Singing Teaching, available 24/7 here https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/12-hours-to-better-singing-teaching
Dr Gillyanne Kayes & Jeremy Fisher reveal more stories behind the stories on their vocal technique books. This episode focuses on two extremes written at the same time - the Singing Express series for children and the Oxford Handbook of Singing for academics.
How we found our writing voice for each audience
Behind the scenes on creating and filming Singing Express
Collaborative writing (and why it took us 16 years to really make it work between us)
Working with a team of composers and arrangers for songs in different genres
The four stages of pitch matching in children (and some adults)
Why we chose to write songs of just a seventh in range
The biggest differences between writing for children and academics
Writing song transcriptions for the Oxford Handbook of Singing (Jessye Norman and LeAnn Rimes)
Four Stages of Pitch Matching https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uFqfVpU8_4w&feature=youtu.be
The Singing Express books and songbooks 1-4 https://www.amazon.co.uk/s?k=singing+express&i=stripbooks&ref=nb_sb_noss_2
The Oxford Handbook of Singing https://www.amazon.co.uk/Oxford-Handbook-Singing-Library-Psychology/dp/0199660778
Amazing Grace transcriptions https://vocalprocess.co.uk/what-is-music-anyway/
How To Sing Legato https://www.amazon.co.uk/How-Sing-Legato-Practical-exercises-ebook/dp/B07CP4SXT3/
Professional Development Webinars 1-18 are now all available in the Learning Lounge for less than the price of one singing lesson https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/the-vocal-technique-learning-lounge
Download your free Build Your Own Tilting Larynx template on https://vocalprocess.co.uk/build-your-own-tilting-larynx
Vocal Process Online Singing Teacher Training is now the 12 Hours to Better Singing Teaching, available 24/7 here https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/12-hours-to-better-singing-teaching
This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. Welcome to the podcast. This is Episode Seven. And this is the stories behind the stories part two. I'm Jeremy Fisher.
Gillyanne Kayes :I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes
Jeremy :and the reason we've got a part two is in the episode five, which was the first Stories behind the Stories we have... we talked about the two - of our first books. Should I start that again? That was just a bizarre place. Okay. Episode Five. The stories behind the stories. The first time we did this was talking about the first two books that we wrote which were Singing and the Actor and Successful Singing Auditions. And now we're going to move on to the next set of books that we wrote, which is Singing Express. And not that many people know that we wrote this series.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, I think people wouldn't automatically associate us with writers for children. And indeed, that would be quite reasonable as neither of us have had children. And actually, I haven't had much experience teaching kids except at the very beginning of my career. And I always prefer to work with from about 11 Plus
Jeremy :yeah, I prefer 21 plus. Why Why? Why on earth are we asked to write Singing Express, because Singing Express is a book set of four books for kids aged seven to
Gillyanne Kayes :up to...
Jeremy :No it's earlier than that it's five it's five to nine.
Gillyanne Kayes :It is, yes.
Jeremy :Five to nine, there you go.
Gillyanne Kayes :In fact, you might...
Jeremy :This is so long ago!
Gillyanne Kayes :You might even get to early years for Singing Express one. Yeah. I certainly know of people who've used them at preschool, and said the kids have really enjoyed them.
Jeremy :Okay, so what's the story behind the story?
Gillyanne Kayes :The story behind the story is, once again, my friend Ana Sanderson got me into deep water.
Jeremy :Yeah, hello, Ana.
Gillyanne Kayes :There, I was happily having started a PhD. And Ana rang me up one day, and she was working at A&C Black at that time and had been working there for several years in the music department.
Jeremy :A&C Black is a publishers
Gillyanne Kayes :as a composer and
Jeremy :very prestigious publishers
Gillyanne Kayes :writer. Yes. And they had a very, very good track record for music education books.
Jeremy :Yes.
Gillyanne Kayes :So Ana rang me up and said, Oh, you know, Gilly, I don't know if you know, but we've, we've had a very successful series called Music Express. And, you know, it's been rolled out in all of the schools. And, you know, it's been doing very well for several years. So we were thinking about, wouldn't it be a good idea to do one called Singing Express. Because, you know, the voice is also an important instrument, and it's an instrument that everybody can use. And currently, because this was what 2009? No it was before then 2008 because I started it before we moved house. Yes. Because we moved to Wales in 2009. Yeah. Yeah. This is a long time ago, people were digging into our memory banks here. So let's say that we started working on it in 2008. I think that would be about right.
Jeremy :Yeah.
Gillyanne Kayes :And at that time, there was a sort of a change in government policy in the UK, and there was a real movement towards doing more singing in schools. Okay.
Jeremy :So also, by the way, the great thing about singing is that you can still learn all the music things like rhythm, and pitching and intonation and melody and harmony. But you don't have to have an instrument there.
Gillyanne Kayes :Absolutely, the instrument is free. Yeah. So this was Ana's thinking and it was very good thinking. So my first response was, "but I don't know anything about children".
Jeremy :Yeah.
Gillyanne Kayes :Don't worry, said Ana, I've got two of them. And I've been writing for children for decades. And we have all of that experience here at A&C Black.
Jeremy :I was gonna say that department was particularly good at writing kids' stuff.
Gillyanne Kayes :Absolutely.
Jeremy :So we had a great department behind us.
Gillyanne Kayes :And I think Ana's thinking quite rightly was, well, the voice is the voice. So the way that the voice works, surely, it's not that much different in children's voices. Ana's thinking was the voice is the voice. Now I had a feeling that it might not be quite like that. And for the simple reason that my primary PhD supervisor was Professor Graham Welch, world-leading expert on child voice education. And I sort of knew from having conversations with him that it might not be quite like that, but more of that later. So, um, yeah, what we, we started off by doing was we sort of brought some songs to the table. We talked about learning areas, sort of learning zones and how could we make singing technique first of all accessible and fun for kids. And the other really big thing was that this was aimed at the generalist teacher for use in the classroom. Now for those of you who aren't in the UK, a generalist teacher obviously teaches any subject. They are not a music specialist. Therefore they are S.H.I.T scared of singing in front of people
Jeremy :And wasn't X Factor and Pop Idol and all of those things they were all around at the time
Gillyanne Kayes :They were just starting. Simon Cowell has quite a lot to be responsible for because actually his name was mentioned in some of the early research sessions that they did with teachers to find out what it was that they thought they needed. And they said that they were afraid of being ridiculed, because the quality of their voice wasn't very good. Although, you know, they could sing, they could sing in tune.
Jeremy :I think it was one of the sort of rather unfortunate byproducts of programmes like that, because there are some good ones, but that suddenly everybody became a very vocal armchair critic of anything singing.
Gillyanne Kayes :Hmm. So I mean, this was much more about writing a few songs, we really wanted the scheme first of all, to be relevant to primary school education and all of those topics. And secondly, to all of the songs and the activities - I learned that you do activities in books like this children don't just do, you know, learning the music and learning the songs. There are other modes of learning - that all of this songs and activities needed to have some kind of focus because we knew even I knew that we weren't going to get five year olds to do singing exercises, that wasn't how it was going to go
Jeremy :It doesn't actually work either
Gillyanne Kayes :And certainly as you get further up the scale, they wouldn't want to do that.
Jeremy :And I should just say at the moment that I actually wasn't involved with books one and two at all. So this is very much Gillyanne and Ana
Gillyanne Kayes :So that was the first problem, which is how do you deliver voice skills out of a more traditional exercise context? And how do you make them deliverable within a classroom context? And the deliverable within a classroom context is very much A&C Black's expertise, and obviously mine was was the voice. So what we came up with, I'm just going to have a quick look here .We came up with these
Jeremy :just before you go into that I just want to say that in the books in fact, in all four books you have charts, games, stories, songs, whiteboard, movie demos, backing tracks, vocal learning path.
Gillyanne Kayes :So it's very much multimedia
Jeremy :very much multimedia. Yeah. So and even then we were doing audio CD, white board, DVDs, it was DVD ROM then, video DVDs. So we have movies made, we have both example tracks with the singer and backing tracks without the singer.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. So the idea was, I think it was a great concept that the generalist music teacher who was scared of singing, could put the DVD ROM on and put the whiteboard presentation on and go, Yeah, he/she would never need to sing in front of the children or could sing with the children. So there we're not having to teach by call and response, which of course, is the normal way that we do this. Yes. So going back to sort of my area, which was the five key vocal learning areas, that's what we came up with. And we came up with Body Balance. And a really key thing for us was we weren't going to really talk about posture because it's not about fixing. The second area was Breath and understanding how breath is used in the body and all sorts of games and things that can be done with that. Pitching. And what we did with pitching and this came about after the meeting with Professor Welch of which more later
Jeremy :That's just a tease.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah another tease. We separated between pitch exploration so you know, making noises and sounds and getting a sense of where pitch lives in space or in our bodies. And pitch matching which of course is the, the more user friendly way of talking about singing in tune,
Jeremy :Pitch matching I think is really interesting because anytime that you are with anybody else at all, so if you you might be singing, two of you might be singing acapella but in harmony together, or even singing the same melody together the same the same thing or anytime you with an instrument you are basically you have to be in tune with whatever is going on around you
Gillyanne Kayes :And actually, this was one of the big things as well that came up with the, you know, the research into teachers, because this questionnaire was sent out - this is some the best way to find out what your audience need with a huge collaborative project like this. That, that, again, they were worried about, what if, what if I can't pitch you know, the wonderful word pitchy that came out of these reality TV singing programmes "Oh, it's a bit pitchy". So, pitch matching is different from pitch exploration. Then, we talked about Sound Shapers, which, you know, in more traditional approach we would talk about in terms of resonance, but how we, how we use the mouth, what's happening with the tongue, maybe the jaw, what's happening with our lips and how we shape the sound that way. And I learned that in primary school, they learn phonics, and so that was a great way for us to link with the phonics learning that kids are doing at that point in time for written language and verbal language. And then finally, we went for Expression because we thought this was important expression. Songs tell stories or they create mood. And that would also allow for things like, you know, maybe manner of articulation and exploring tonal colours, you know, raw noises, pretty noises, all sorts of things.
Jeremy :So that's five. five sections, and the five key vocal learning areas were put into... that was always behind all of the writing all the way through all four books. So you've got Body Balance, Breath, Pitch, Sound Shapers and Expression.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. Now, I do want to talk about the the first meeting with Professor Graham Welch. And then what I'd like to talk about is that we had also an introduction and a help area, which I have to say I'm really proud of. So we said yes, you know, Graham Welch could we come and have a meeting and it was myself and Ana and sort of the, you know, the the whole the creative editor and we'd got a sort of mock up whiteboard presentation of a song, which I think it's called Hum Hum Hum. And we're quite pleased with this song, you know, we looked at it, we thought this was a good vocal learning song. So Professor Welch sat there and watched the whole thing, was quite quiet and he said, Hmm, have you noticed that the range of this song is a 12th
Jeremy :That's an octave and a half
Gillyanne Kayes :And we looked at each other bit of an eye roll. And he said, if you want to be inclusive of all children in the classroom at their stages of pitch matching, you must always include songs that are only a sixth in pitch span.
Jeremy :so like C to A
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, at every level. So we kind of went to the shock and we realised that all of the songs we got together we thought are these are really nice music. You know, we really like this song. This is a great song. This is a good song from a musical point of view. Oh, that's very interesting. Nope, that is not gonna work when you're writing for kids.
Jeremy :I think I want to pick this apart because I think so many times and even after the, excuse me, even after the books were published, we used to watch, go and watch people do choral sort of training presentations for kids and their opening piece would be an octave and a half. And I think this is really interesting because people who tend to do - and I'm doing a big generalisation here. People who tend to do choral training tend to be musicians, and they are really attracted to big ranges, complex harmonies, complex melodies, complex rhythms, because they're interesting, interesting and exciting. And when you're working with kids who are still in the stages of pitch change, which we're going to talk about in a minute, sometimes they have three notes. Sometimes they have six notes, sometimes they have seven notes, you know, they don't have an octave and a half, easily accessible, or even sometimes at all. So one of the things was, it was one of the reasons I think that you included chanting you included limited range things, you know, three notes, four notes, five notes, and 90% of all four books are only go over a sixth, or possibly a seventh. I know that in Book Three, there was one song that we thought was so good, and it was something like a tenth, but we included it anyway. But yeah, exception rather than the rule.
Gillyanne Kayes :And we put a note about that. I mean, this was a real shock because I have to say, you know, we had a nice batch of songs. several inches deep and we had to throw most of those out and we had to go right back to the drawing board.
Jeremy :I want to bring up the composer's as well, because so much of the music that was involved in this series was either arranged for us or composed for especially. And when we told the composers and then we had a real team of them. And we said you can only write over a range of a seventh. And I think they went into shock as well, because it was so unusual. At that time. That was such an unusual brief for a composer to write a kid's song that only covered six or seven notes
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, yes. And I think it was a real eye opener to find out about, you know, the the research that Professor Welch was engaged in at that time, actually. And you know, that the first findings came out in about 2009. And they were looking into the National Singing programme. And you know, what they found was, what are the kids aged seven to eight, the G below middle C to the B just just above Middle C, that that's considered comfortable singing range. And it's only when you get to ages 10 and 11, that you could be going down to the F below and then staying comfortably up to that C above middle C, this is comfortable singing range as opposed to extended, so that you needed to have the main Bank of your songs within that comfortable singing range. So that it was it was viable for the kids to do them. And as we progressed with the series, what we could say to those who were interested in developing singers range was will try the song out in different keys and challenge the kids to sing higher and lower.
Jeremy :I mean, we've we've been we've been teasing them with the whole four stages of pitch matching thing and I think we should go there now.
Gillyanne Kayes :I don't see why we shouldn't have you got to have you got it off pat?
Jeremy :No,
Gillyanne Kayes :I think he's just I think it is here.
Jeremy :Yes. This was such an... oh it isn't it? How interesting. Okay, if this was such an eye opener, we actually still use this on our training courses where we used it last week on the Online Singing Teacher Training course that we do, which is five days completely online. Okay, so stage number one. And by the way, kids go through this, some just zoom through them really, really fast. Some go through them very slowly, some get stuck (thank you)
Gillyanne Kayes :I found it
Jeremy :Some get stuck. And in fact, some adults are still stuck in this set of four sequence, in the sequence and I think even that is just interesting to know. So I have this is Singing Express one. I have that here.
Gillyanne Kayes :And there's a help area at the back of it.
Jeremy :Yes. So in the help area, we have the four stages of development adapted from Professor Welch and his 1998 research. And this is phase one: words rather than melody so the singing is likely to be chant-like with a very restricted pitch range, and the falling melodic pattern Duhduh happens more often,
Gillyanne Kayes :you know how the kids they love to pick up those words and that they'll come out with them and they're, you know, they're mouthing them because they're at that stage where they've they've begun to get control of language, and they love words.
Jeremy :And in fact, I did, and we will put the link up, I did a demonstration of the four stages of pitch matching which is now on our YouTube, the YouTube channel youtube.com/VocalProcess. four stages of pitch matching, I basically sang a song demonstrating the four different t hings which was great
Gillyanne Kayes :You did it was rather impressive, I think you got a round of applause if I remember rightly
Jeremy :Huge fun to do that was
Gillyanne Kayes :so that's stage one
Jeremy :phase one is is very chant-like, rhythm is normally spot on words are normally spot on pitch, nowhere near. Phase two, developing awareness and conscious control of pitch able to follow larger melodic contours of a song. Now this is the interesting bit there's a sense of musical key but it's phrase based, so you are likely to get approximately the right shape in the phrase, but then when the next phrase starts, we're in a completely different key.
Gillyanne Kayes :And people, you will recognise this with some of your adult beginner singers.
Jeremy :Yeah, I recommend you go, I do a beautiful demonstration on the YouTube channel. Phase Three increased accuracy of melodic shaping intervals, but may change key while control the vocal range is still in development. So you've moved on a bit further. Yeah, you know, we were now able to recognise the the melody, clearly, but still does not have the ability to maintain a key through several phrases.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. And also, I think one of the important things about this is if you think about ages seven to eight, the comfortable range was G below middle C, up to the B above, most of that is what we would think of as being chest voice range or speak-singing voice range. And if a child doesn't listen to music, where they hear people going into their upper range into their headvoice. Or, you know, the child has never used that, then if a song starts to stray into that area, then what they'll do is they'll drop down so they can still manage the melodic pattern. We all hear, we hear this when we listen to people singing in church.
Jeremy :Yes, or in the restaurant? Yes. And then Phase Four is no significant melodic or pitch errors when singing relatively simple songs of own culture. And we really need to unpick that bit at the end, because relatively simple songs so people can get them correct. Of their own culture. So there is something about the tonality or the melody or the history that is in their brain, in their psyche already and they can recognise those notes and reproduce them correctly.
Gillyanne Kayes :And I would guess it's also the listening culture at home, whatever their parents listen to what the kids watch on television, what kind of music is being used on television, even the music that accompanies adverts, yes. So all of that in a way that's more kind of socio-cultural. But that's definitely going to impact
Jeremy :and people who run community choirs are going to recognise those stages straightaway.
Gillyanne Kayes :And I do want to say something here, you know, the fact that I haven't worked that much with kids, except in my early career. I still hear people talking about, oh, there's a few droners in my choir, or there's a few droners in my class. What shall I do? There aren't droners. All you have this people at stage one pitch matching. Yes. So they will almost certainly be able to do the rhythm and the words. Yeah. So you may be able to hear we have I think we're just about to be attacked by a plane! There's a little bit of humming.
Jeremy :There's a flyover going on.
Gillyanne Kayes :So that was a very, very fruitful meeting with Professor Welch.
Jeremy :That was a bit of a facer
Gillyanne Kayes :We definitely knew more by the end of it. It was incredibly useful. And he was very kind enough to write us a foreword as well. And I think it really contributed to the value of this particular series.
Jeremy :I think one of the reasons also that we actually quite enjoyed working on this is the idea that we we have a massive catalogue of vocal techniques, we have a huge catalogue of physiological understanding. And it's, for this level, we couldn't essentially, we knew who the audience was. And we couldn't do lots and lots of detail. What we had to do was the practical application of it rather than the theoretical or the physiological or anything like that, because the language wouldn't have worked for this audience. And I think that's one of the things about finding your voice as a writer. It is interesting that our first 1234567 books, were commissions, and therefore we had a specific audience given to us to write for. And so part of the skill of being a writer of vocal technique books is that you need to know who you're aiming at. In fact, it was. It's eight because it's the Oxford Handbook of Singing as well, which we're going to talk about in a minute because
Gillyanne Kayes :If we've got the energy left!
Jeremy :Because at the same time as writing this set of books for children and their teachers, we were also writing two chapters for the Oxford Handbook of Singing, which is basically academic level where everything had to be demonstrated everything had to be validated.
Gillyanne Kayes :And peer reviewed
Jeremy :And peer reviewed. Yeah, so we were writing it two entirely different levels. And then Gillyanne was doing a PhD as well, at the same time. And I was in a darkened room, waiting for her to come out.
Gillyanne Kayes :There's a few things if there's been a little bit of rustling in the background. It's because I've been opening up the book and looking for one or two things I wanted to share with you. One of the things that we wanted to make absolutely clear to people was the idea that first of all, every child has the potential to sing. And we felt that instead of being geared towards "you must learn the song and get the song right", the job was to develop the singer so we came up with this phrase "the singer first then the song"
Jeremy :Yeah. Which in fact we still do
Gillyanne Kayes :It's pretty much how we think of it anyway
Jeremy :still now.
Gillyanne Kayes :So that's the focus is developing the singer and and their response to music. Music reading, not a requirement really, really important to understand that - getting literacy. musicality does not depend on music, musical literacy.
Jeremy :I think that was fairly unusual when this when this was written because often singing books just automatically assume that you read music and we didn't want to do that. And partly because we've been working with actors for so long for 20, 30 years. Many of whom at the time, certainly and still still now, don't read music or read it very, very badly. And to me to be an actor and get up on stage, it's not important to know whether that's a quaver or a crotchet
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. So that kind of realisation of what melody is and pattern, duration, which is rhythm, and pulse, and dynamic and timbre, which, by the way are all kind of goals in music education. All of those really those were kind of outcomes of the songs and the learning activities that they did, rather than being spelled out in the, in the text of the work, if you like, and I think that's important. And we also talked about how a child voice differs from an adult's voice, that it's not just a case that it's smaller, but it's that the smallness has different levels of importance the lungs are smaller, so you know, you're not going to develop breath control by using adult size phrases. You can expect a different timbre because the larynx is, is smaller, the texture of the vocal folds different etc. All of those things that anybody who's interested in the lifespan of the voice is aware of.
Jeremy :And I just want to sort of move on because this, this project took three or four years all together, to put together. Books one and two were published. And then we were contracted to do books three and four. And I was brought in to expand the musical styles, really.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, I felt that we were getting to a stage where I'd given the advice needed on the vocal learning targets. But when it came to expanding the musical scope, then we really needed someone else. And I felt Jeremy was the right person for that
Jeremy :I hads such fun. I've never had a team of composers to play with before. That was so much fun. So we would we would have a song and that song might exist or it might be written for us. So, and particularly then we had another team of arrangers. It wasn't always the composer who arranged the songs for the books. So the song would arrive. And we'd go Yes, love the song, love the lyrics that's going to work really well, great range. And then I'd send it off to the arranger. And to start with it was like, Well, you know, we need something and it would be a quite a detailed list of things. And by the end of it, there was one arranger in particular, and I would go, could we have something that sort of sparkly Disney and that would be it, that would be the only thing the only instruction I'd given what came back was fantastic
Gillyanne Kayes :It was gorgeous
Jeremy :Because he absolutely got what the brief was
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, I'd forgotten that you did all that you were the one that did all these long phone calls. They'd sort of submit you know, sample arrangements and then they come back and you know, sometimes a bit of tact is required
Jeremy :and sometimes it wasn't
Gillyanne Kayes :And some of them were highly experienced.
Jeremy :There was one and unfortunately we don't because we've sold out of Book Four and I can't remember what the song was called, but it was a it was a Mary had a little lamb song that then disintegrated into something much heavier.
Gillyanne Kayes :well it was pretty much metal wasn't it?
Jeremy :I was so thrilled because I got a sort of heavy rock accompaniment in including a real guitar slash. And there were emails going backwards and forwards about where this guitar interruption was going to come to get us from the lovely nursery rhyme into the rock. And I kept saying no, no, it needs to arrive on the third quaver of bar 17 now that's not arriving there but starting on the third but no one it needs to start off and it was got immensely technical about where this single slide guitar slide needed to come. But we got it right in the end and I love that because I snuck in some some heavy rock. Yeah, just into the book because we had beautiful Disney stuff. We had jazz, we had folk we had lots of different styles world music,
Gillyanne Kayes :Obviously to reflect our multicultural society.
Jeremy :Absolutely, yeah. Beautiful Indian type song with accompaniment, really loved that song. So there's so many different styles in that I actually forgot to count them I was going to. But that was huge fun because it was what style is going to fit this lyric, what style is going to fit this song? And when the arrangement came in, did it work? Was it did it actually reflect exactly what was going on in the music?
Gillyanne Kayes :I think the first thing you know, you should know if you're interested in doing a big project like this is you have to be prepared to collaborate. I mean, this was a massive collaborative project. When we started off it was mostly me and Ana, and the the creative editor, Sheena, and then occasional meetings with the filming team who were doing all the whiteboard things
Jeremy :we haven't even mentioned them yet
Gillyanne Kayes :WalkTall Media
Jeremy :WalkTalI Media and Jacqui, loved working with them. I mean, I love I love video media anyway, I tend to think televisually so the moment you give me a song or a or a line, I will tend to, to imagine it on television. So I loved working with the video people because we were videoing quite a lot of songs. Yeah. And there was so much intricate detail to play with.
Gillyanne Kayes :I mean, for me at the beginning, that was because I'd never done any work of that type at all. So you know, I'd go to these big planning meetings and sit there and occasionally throw in a word. But as we got further on, we realised that we actually needed to video some guide tracks as well as having the the sort of the whiteboard presentation the visual side. So we had to get actors in.
Jeremy :And I want to mention, I want to mention the list of people that we got because there was great people who did all our singing. So we have - I had a list somewhere, where've they gone?
Gillyanne Kayes :well, I'm just looking here
Jeremy :Here we go. Right back listen presenters, Rosemary Amoani, Rosemary was great. She was on Ballamory and she came in and sang some of the songs for us and in fact videoed my song I wrote lyrics to a song which is great and we still use that. Kim Chandler, the excellent Kim Chandler who still holds the record for the most number of songs and the most number of correct the the least number of correct, no,
Gillyanne Kayes :First takes!
Jeremy :First takes she managed to record 17 songs in one day, which is extraordinary
Gillyanne Kayes :Kim Chandler you are the first take queen!
Jeremy :Absolutely. Me! I actually appear on some of the songs I sang some lines. Nigel Pilkington. Bridgitta Roy who's an old friend of ours. Kaz Simmons. Anthony Strong, Matthew White now a theatre director.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes.
Jeremy :So there were loads of people and there was somebody else as well.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, Cleveland Watkiss
Jeremy :Cleveland! Yes.
Gillyanne Kayes :A well known jazz singer.
Jeremy :Yes. So one of the things about the singers was that we have specific rules for them, which was no vibrato
Gillyanne Kayes :No wobble!
Jeremy :No vibrato. Now, the reason that we wanted no vibrato was because we wanted the adult voices to sound as close to the kids voices as possible. So we said no vibrato and a lighter sound. It was really interesting to find out how many singers automatically put vibrato in, and to actually ask them to take it out all the way through a song was quite something
Gillyanne Kayes :And occasionally, we just have to stop and say listen, you need to make that lighter, slightly brighter. Can you back off, don't give us you know, such a high subglottal pressure. Children's voices are smaller. And that was that was such an interesting challenge, really enjoyed that.
Jeremy :And props to Steven Chadwick as well who did all the recording for us and wrote several of the songs.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, hours in the recording studio hours in planning meetings. occasional disagreements between the creative teams, I can remember one time when Jeremy and I pretty much had a standoff. Yeah. And that was interesting. And the creative team work kind of in the studio looking to what are they going to do these two? We got there in the end. Yep.
Jeremy :We're lovely to work with. Most of the time
Gillyanne Kayes :Do you know, I think if we'd been a married couple, we wouldn't have had the standoff. So there's one more thing.
Jeremy :No we were, we were married at the time.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes.
Jeremy :Yeah. Yeah. So that, all gorgeous.
Gillyanne Kayes :Um, I just want to say one more thing, which was bear in mind that we're working with a generalist teacher here. So what we did at every stage was that we made it absolutely clear what the learning area was for a particular song. And then we would have Teaching Tips. So for instance, I've got one here with Song in Book Three called Circle Song. And the Teaching Tips are fitting the words and melody together is an important singing skill, help the children by practising the second verse together slowly as a chant, before singing it to the backing track. And so little things like that, where we thought, what were they going to trip up here? And sometimes in the Teaching Tips, it would be how do you move on? So we always had when and where, when can you use this? Maybe in relation to maths and when you're learning about circles - the song is called circle song, so there's a cross-curricular link there. Maybe as a stimulus for creating a dance in a sort of a physical session.
Jeremy :So there are always new ideas that it wasn't just about singing the song. It was also about context and variation
Gillyanne Kayes :Very much so. And that's something that's incredibly important for schools that sense of cross-curricular learning. And then guidelines for how to get started. How are you going to start teaching them And then what are you going to do to move it on? You know, is there a higher level that you could do the song at, could you explore it further. So we've got that at every single stage. I must say I'm very proud about that.
Jeremy :I just want to before we move on to on to the next book that we wrote, I want to talk about Moveability, which was the one song that I wrote the the lyrics for. And I just done some Chi Gung something a course that had Chi Gung in it, and there's a sequence of Chi Gung movements and I went, I love this. This is really great because I feel the energy flowing when I'm doing it.
Gillyanne Kayes :Oh, anyone who has worked with the lake Meribeth Dayme, will be familiar with these moves. I think there's eight different Chi Gung moves and they are, in fact, a very nice physical integration.
Jeremy :So a song arrived on my desk, which was I've even forgotten what it was called. And I think it was called singability or something like that. And I just went ooh that's, this is interesting if we took the moves and the words from my sequence, and we put them onto that song that would actually work really well. So it became the song Moveability. And it was filmed for the video. And in fact, we've we've used it ever since. And we use it as a warm up. We've actually used it as a warm up on our courses. And I don't know whether it's anywhere online, I'll have a look. But I what we found is that it was written for nine year olds, but we've had adults doing it. We've had drama students doing it in the streets
Gillyanne Kayes :Apparently the first year undergraduates love it as a warmup
Jeremy :First year undergrads love it. And it's all all the moves to set. The melody is five note pentatonic. So there are only five notes in it. And the it's a very simple melody. It's a very simple rhythm, but the fun is in all the movements and you do them one by one, and it because they are Chi Gung exercises you can feel the energy moving. It's a real energy warmer upper. So love that song. Very pleased that that's out there.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, if we find a performance of it on YouTube, maybe we'll post the link to it.
Jeremy :And if you want to DO a performance and let us know
Gillyanne Kayes :we would love to see it, it's a terrific song. Yeah, we were very proud of that.
Jeremy :So I'm just want to spend a few minutes moving on because at the same time of writing this, we were also invited to write a chapter for the Oxford Handbook of Singing on the Pedagogy of Sung Genres.
Gillyanne Kayes :Oh, by the way, just because I needed more to do I was in the process of doing my PhD at that time
Jeremy :Right in the middle of it, yes, because we don't get - we don't like being bored. So we were
Gillyanne Kayes :So we'd got books one and two done. Yeah. Then we moved house. Yes. Which involved moving our business from London to
Jeremy :the Welsh borders, which is where we live now
Gillyanne Kayes :A more global place.
Jeremy :And then we did three and four. Mm hmm. And three or four were just massive projects. And I think at the same time, same time we were writing the chapter for the Oxford Handbook of singing with Lisa Popeil in America.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes. And now the person responsible for this was my supervisor. Yes, yes. Because he knew I was very interested in genre. That was one of the main topics of my PhD, the main foci. And so he was one of the editors for the Oxford Handbook of Singing Can you hold the tome up Jeremy?
Jeremy :For the people on YouTube, you'll hear me grunting because this is an 1100 page book. If you're looking on YouTube, it's the one that's directly behind us in the centre. It's an amazing book. It has a who's who of music and vocal educators.
Gillyanne Kayes :It's a fantastic resource. I have to say it's absolute labour of love. Yeah. Three editors Professor Graham Welch, David Howard
Jeremy :Hi David
Gillyanne Kayes :and John Nix. Yes. So Graham decided that I would be a very good person and to write together with Jeremy, to write a chapter on pedagogy of different sung genres. So I mean of course we were thrilled because
Jeremy :This is what we do
Gillyanne Kayes :Also that point in time, you know, 2010, there wasn't really that much out there about the pedagogy of non classical genres, not in the academic world. Yeah. And we would feel quite honoured that we'd been asked to do that, together with Lisa Popeil from the US. As we felt that it was an affirmation really, that we were the right people to talk about if you like comparative pedagogy between the genres.
Jeremy :So there's, there's quite a lot in this chapter. It's it's quite dense. And of course, because we're writing for what is essentially an academic book,
Gillyanne Kayes :well, anything we wrote had to be evidence based. We have to couldn't just do our business because we do it. Well, because we like it or because this is our opinion, you need to bear in mind that when you write a chapter for an academic edited book, you will be peer reviewed, likely by some colleagues that you greatly esteem Yes. And that process in itself being prepared to take that on the chin.
Jeremy :And it was interesting because where we ended up going in terms of genres discussed, and we have a table fortunately, Western lyric, which is basically classical, Western classical, opera, art song and early music, and then CCM or contemporary commercial music, musical theatre. Now that's an interesting one for us because we sort of don't - we think musical theatre is a genre all of its own, a section all of its own
Gillyanne Kayes :Fortunately all three of us were agreed on that.
Jeremy :But in this in this table, we put it under CCM. jazz, commercial music, pop, rock, r&b including soul, country. So yeah, that was, that was quite an enormous spread of of stuff. And in fact, in for the research that I did with the Allmusic database, there are something like 700 different genres just in contemporary commercial music.
Gillyanne Kayes :Actually, it was very good that we had Lisa as a co author on this because she was kind of very on the money about all of these different areas. She's taught a lot of the sub genres of contemporary commercial music. And she also had a very good idea about the sort of the the cultural aspect of the performance culture.
Jeremy :There was an interesting point. Wasn't that where we were asked to cover other stuff?
Gillyanne Kayes :Oh, yes. Well, okay so we submitted...
Jeremy :Sorry, this is I'm sorry, but this is a little ridiculous.
Gillyanne Kayes :No, no, but this is what happens. So we submitted our first draft. Yeah, that was great.
Jeremy :We worked very hard on that draft.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. You know, we like it. And of course, we were breathing a sigh of relief. That's great. And they came back to us. And they said, Well, we think that we need to include non Western music. You know, for instance, what about Indian and African and Chinese?
Jeremy :And you know, the Home Alone Look, what are you going Hands on your face with the mouth open? We were going on, hang on, we're already covering 700 different genres. And now you're asking us to cover entire country outputs.
Gillyanne Kayes :So we said, No, it wouldn't not for us
Jeremy :We said we didn't know anything about that.
Gillyanne Kayes :I mean, you know what, what the thinking quite rightly was, if we're talking about music culture, why are we only talking about Western music cultures? Yeah. And that was absolutely appropriate.
Jeremy :Fair enough
Gillyanne Kayes :But the amount of research and reading that would have been required to talk about a topic of which none of us knew anything.
Jeremy :Nope
Gillyanne Kayes :It just was not viable. So
Jeremy :we said no
Gillyanne Kayes :please can you find someone else to do that?And that is exactly what happened.
Jeremy :Computer says no.
Gillyanne Kayes :So that's something that you can you can check out. We might even redo some of the chapter headings of this. Yeah. So yes, we got out of that one nicely.
Jeremy :But it was interesting because we're still talking about the same things. We're still talking about resonation, respiration, phonation, articulation, we still talking about the same stuff. But in different genres. They have all sorts of different balances. And part of that comes from not just the history of the music, but the venue, the type of venue that they played in, whether it's miked or not, and also that what the audience expectations are
Gillyanne Kayes :The performance expectations. We also talked, didn't we about can you just sort of flick back? Because I quite like the heading before that, the heading with the three with the
Jeremy :Yeah, genre idiom voice.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, we came up with idiom. I mean, idiom is something that musicologists write about, and something that one of the things that Lisa Popeil brought to the table was her own kind of list of stylisms where she'd sort of observed different, almost vocal effects and different stylisms that are used in different sub genres. And we decided that we were going to call those Idioms, so that we'd talk about general use of voice, genre expectations, and then what some of the stylisms might be. And what, you can just imagine the huge amount of information that you're sifting through and wanting to - wanting to put in some kind of cohesive form, so that people could read it and understand why people, why singers might use their voices differently, what the reason would be, why they would sing their voices differently, what trends there are, and from that, what kind of teaching approaches might be used to there was a massive amount to get through and without some kind of framework that would have been impossible.
Jeremy :I think it was working the framework out took so much time because it was such an enormous topic to deal with. Yeah, we just had to take a stance, literally to be able to start something.
Gillyanne Kayes :And I think that that's something that I'm probably quite good at. I mean, I was in the middle of doing a PhD. So I was having to think sort of categories and structural thought and sometimes it can box you in and you have to be careful about that
Jeremy :Well you essentially became lead writer on this, you were doing most of the writing of it. And Lisa and I were doing lots and lots of discussion and input on it, but also
Gillyanne Kayes :I think I was being Headmistress is really what he's saying
Jeremy :No I'm not! Of the of the three of us you were also the person who had the most experience with references
Gillyanne Kayes :Well, I was looking at the the academic targets if you like so it was what I felt I could bring.
Jeremy :Anything we put in the chapter had to have an academic reference of some kind, and that's really interesting because there are lots of things that we could have put in particularly...
Gillyanne Kayes :I mean, if it was anecdotal, we had to say anecdotal. And, Jeremy, I want you before the end of this session, I want you to talk about
Jeremy :the transcriptions
Gillyanne Kayes :and the survey.
Jeremy :Yes, yeah. Okay. But there's a there's a Table Table 35.3. On page 720,
Gillyanne Kayes :you can buy the chapter separately folks
Jeremy :you can
Gillyanne Kayes :we will put links for you
Jeremy :where we talk about vocal effects and what the descriptions are, and obviously, we're talking about tone onsets. So you've got the glottal, the, the aspirator breath on set and the glide onset or the simultaneous or the singer's, or the smooth onset or whatever you want to call it. But then we got actually quite interesting quite fast. So we've got note arrivals, you've got fry, the yodel down, the yodel up, the squeeze, the growl, the pitch rise, the pitch fall, the short improvisation and then a whole list of combinations that you could do and I'm still using some of these in in what we teach.
Gillyanne Kayes :We had a lot of fun discussing those between the three of us, didn't we?
Jeremy :Yeah, I think I introduced one to Lisa that she hadn't heard before. she went surely that doesn't exist in a way? Yes, it does. Here's an example of it. And that was the squeeze glottal. So which I have heard quite a lot since.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, you you can do that.
Jeremy :So that was fun. Okay, so you want to talk about the transcriptions?
Gillyanne Kayes :Let's do that first. Because, you know, we got to the stage where we thought they need to see something on paper now, as it happened. Jeremy was doing helping me with some transcriptions for my PhD or maybe it was the other way around?
Jeremy :No, the PhD can later, you weren't at that stage yet
Gillyanne Kayes :I know. We went to Australia. It was our first teaching trip to Australia for ANATS and knew that as the
Jeremy :Master Teachers for 2011
Gillyanne Kayes :And we said we we've got to make this tangible for people. So we found two recordings of Amazing Grace
Jeremy :Now these specifically they were acapella recordings, because I didn't want to have to deal with instrumentals. So we had Jessye Norman singing Amazing Grace and that was on a French television programme about Martin Luther King. And she just sat in the chair having been interviewed and sang Amazing Grace. And then there is a really good video of LeAnn Rimes singing Amazing Grace and she's standing in a church and it is completely acapella. So again, really useful to do and we have such different performances. So one is very classical based. There is an element of gospel about it
Gillyanne Kayes :Jessye Norman, slumming it Mostly, we're talking classical. And then you have LeAnn Rimes, which is pop country, essentially. So there's there's two different flavours in there. And I transcribed them. So I think we might be able to put this up somewhere. It's probably I can put it up On the, the, I don't see why you shouldn't, why you shouldn't put the visuals up
Jeremy :Yeah, because it is so amazing. It's so interesting with just to see the notes that they were singing the way that they moved between them. The one thing we didn't do was phonetic transcription, which would have driven me nuts. So if anybody wants to do a phonetic transcription of either of these recordings, please do, please let us know
Gillyanne Kayes :Any of you phonetics geeks. Yes, please, please do and I think what's nice about this is that it reminds us that a piece of music on the page is only a guide, even a classical singer is lifting that music off the page and you would be amazed you will be how many pitch slides there are even in Jessye Norman's
Jeremy :pitch glides, extra notes. Yeah. And also which notes you pitch consonants on I marked those as well. And when we got to LeAnn Rimes, I was marking yodel flips I was marking creak onsets and offsets
Gillyanne Kayes :Fry onsets.
Jeremy :Fry onsets, I was working slides and glides, I was marking notes that were in tun, notes that were out of tune. There's one particular thing which is an effect, which is to sing a note slightly flat to make it sound like it's harder work than it actually is.
Gillyanne Kayes :nd also all the little ornaments that she puts in. Masses of little riffs
Jeremy :I ended up using a little app at the time called the Amazing Slowdowner. Just said I could slow everything down to walking pace, but keep the pitch the same so I could work out what some of the some of the tiny little Demi Hemi Demi Semiquavers are that she was putting in.
Gillyanne Kayes :So if you haven't seen this chapter, have a look once we've got this up on the website. I think you'll find it really enlightening.
Jeremy :Yes. So that was - I'm not gonna say that was fun to write because it was actually very intense and hard work. But we're very proud of it. Yeah. And we still use things from that book.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes.
Jeremy :I want to talk about this whole business of when you have knowledge, how you then apply it because knowledge is basically utterly useless unless it's applied. So it's taking information that we have
Gillyanne Kayes :That sounds like conversations we had when I was doing my PhD.
Jeremy :Yeah. It's when you take what you know, and you work it to something or you work it to an audience or you work it to a singer.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. So you have that knowledge. And you know, I was already doing a PhD when we started Singing Express, so how was I going to really bring that knowledge to a level that was going to be communicable to the generalist singing teacher and the primary school singer
Jeremy :I just remembered, what ended up being my favourite phrase for a couple of years, which is no, that's PhD speak.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, I got it - you learn that from others, I think All right. Thank you, Gilly for PhD moment, now.
Jeremy :Yes, now can we make it practical? And we're going to do a podcast in the future where we talk about how we take the A&P the anatomy and physiology language and information and knowledge that we already have, and how we work it for different audiences. Because ultimately, that's the goal
Gillyanne Kayes :That is the goal. That's very important actually
Jeremy :Yeah. So even writing this stuff, you know, finding our voice was... Oh, by the way, can we just talk collaborative writing? Can we talk collaborative writing Gillyanne?
Gillyanne Kayes :can you be nice?
Jeremy :One of the things that Gillyanne does, we have very different styles of writing because I will sit and I'll write something, and I'll be really, really focused on it. And then I'll come out to the room and I go, Hey, you know, can I share this with you and we talk about it. And Gillyanne is of the opinion that really she doesn't want to share anything at all with me until it's perfect.
Gillyanne Kayes :I have a little nugget.
Jeremy :So three months later
Gillyanne Kayes :I have to grow my little seed
Jeremy :Three months later, I'm going. Would you like to tell me what you're doing? Yeah. It's it's been a little thing of gentle argument since, since 1999, in fact,
Gillyanne Kayes :I think we got it right when we wrote This Is A Voice
Jeremy :Yes! 2016 that was 16 years later, 16 years, it took us to actually be able to do the process in a way that worked for both of us.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, I think you put that really nicely.
Jeremy :Thank you.
Gillyanne Kayes :Um, I don't know, what else can we say? I don't think we should talk about the other chapter except to say that it exists,
Jeremy :the other chapter exists. No, I will mention it, because this is in fact, the opening chapter of the book. And it is the anatomy and physiology chapter written for academics
Gillyanne Kayes :So I'd just breathed out after finishing my PhD. You know, guess what an email comes through from Professor Welch saying, well, I need someone to write
Jeremy :No no no, what he actually said was that basically that chapter in your PhD - it was two chapters
Gillyanne Kayes :No it was chapter two
Jeremy :Chapter two. Yeah. was so good that he wanted you just to morph it slightly to actually work for the book, that's actually what he...
Gillyanne Kayes :There was a little moment of pride
Jeremy :You keep doing yourself down. It's extremely good. And if you can get hold of that, it is one of the best chapters I've read
Gillyanne Kayes :structure and function
Jeremy :of structure and function of singing voice
Gillyanne Kayes :I think it's called. Oh, can we just finish off with reading the section headings for the Oxford Handbook of singing because it is true that it is a fabulous resource. Okay, so kudos to Professor Welch, David Howard and John Nix for this labour of love because it takes a long time. Yeah. So, you've got the first section is the anatomy and physiology of singing
Jeremy :And bear in mind in each of these sections there are at least four different chapters by at least eight different contributors.
Gillyanne Kayes :And my structure and function of singing voices the first one so I was the first chapter in the book, which is a little moment of pride
Jeremy :I think you're one of the few people to have written a chapter by yourself.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah. There are a few of us there I can see. And then the next one is the acoustics of singing. With lots of lovely contributions there. The Psychology of singing. And then the development of singing across the lifespan, singing pedagogy (that was our second chapter was in there). Oh, the collective choral voice, why the benefits of singing, singing for health and singing and psychology And then singing and technology
Jeremy :and future perspectives.
Gillyanne Kayes :Future perspectives yeah,
Jeremy :it's such a great book this Yeah, very proud
Gillyanne Kayes :I mean, every time I find something, oh, I'm excited.
Jeremy :Very proud to be part of that. And just want to finish with Why do we write books? I can tell you right now it ain't for the money!
Gillyanne Kayes :It ain't for the money Oh, Lord, no
Jeremy :I think I think with one of my books, I earned enough to have afternoon tea.
Gillyanne Kayes :I don't know who you had afternoon tea at the Ritz with, it wasn't me
Jeremy :I was gonna say it was afternoon tea at the Ritz but then with another book I've earned enough to have afternoon tea at the local pub. Seriously, you don't make much money from books like this.
Gillyanne Kayes :The reason why I write a book is because it has to be written, you have to share that you have a you have a need to share some aspect of what it is you do, or some aspect of insight that you have, and you want to share it with the world. That's why you do it.
Jeremy :I think it's interesting just because some the first, whatever whatever I said, well, in fact, if you count the Singing Express Book, and then the Singing Express Songbook, we had eight books in that series, but we count them as four. I think it was the first seven books were commissions. But even when you're offered a commission, you still have to go do I really want to write this? What is it that I want to say what what do I have that will work really well that will be strong and powerful.
Gillyanne Kayes :And here we're talking about nonfiction, remember? Yes, it's Still a creative act to do it. You can't do it, speaking personally, if it's not a creative act, I can't do it.
Jeremy :It's interesting because I have the same thing with piano playing, which is if somebody asks me to accompany them in a recital, I will look at the music and the programming and go, do I actually connect with that? Do I want to play it. And if there are usually in a in a recital, there's loads of stuff that I want to do. And there might be one piece that I'm going, I really don't like this one. And I have to work really hard to find something that I want to share in that piece. Something that I think is so special or so unusual, or so something that I want to share it with the audience, and if I can do that, I can connect much deeper into the piece. Oh, and we did the same thing with the webinars. Every single one of the 18 webinars had a reason for it for its existence. There was something that we wanted to get out there. We were sick of the bullshit and we wanted to get information really clear, solid, practical technical information out there
Gillyanne Kayes :or frankly something exciting that you're doing in your lessons and you're doing it on a regular basis and you're thinking, I think other people would like to know about this. Now we need to segue quickly to the end. Having said that it's difficult to earn money from writing books. It's one of the reasons why we're self publishing now. Yes, and Jeremy's first self published book was How to Sing Legato
Jeremy :How to Sing Legato seven years on the pot. I finally got off the pot and, and published it. Really pleased he went to number one on its first day. I love this book, because it's the no bullshit, this is how legato works, this is what it is, this is it, here are the exercises.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yes, yeah. Yeah. Can we finish in three minutes?
Jeremy :Easily
Gillyanne Kayes :Everybody. I have a lovely relaxing Feldenkreis session coming up any minute now
Jeremy :Of course, you do. So yes. So we are being sponsored today by Canu Publishing which is the publishing arm of Vocal Process, and How to Sing Legato was the first book that Canu Publishing produced, we're now up to three. So thank you, Canu Publishing. Everything that we've mentioned we will put links into the description box and I think we're done,
Gillyanne Kayes :I think we're done, Yes.
Jeremy :Thank you very much for listening.
Gillyanne Kayes :Yeah, absolutely.
Jeremy :Bye
Gillyanne Kayes :Bye bye.
Jeremy :This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.