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This Is A Voice
This Is A Voice
BEST BITS part 1 - Vocal folds & hydration, voice habilitation & breathy-light
The last time we did a Best Bits was 43 episodes ago! So here are three of our favourite episodes from the last 18 months (part 1)
1. Vocal folds and hydration (S2 Ep9)
- why singers have to be careful how MUCH water you drink (with a real-life horror story)
- different types of dehydration + research into hydration and the effects on your voice
- And which country has a different idea of how much water is enough
2. Songs, Lyrics and Life with Georgia Mancio (S2 Ep10). One of our personal favourite episodes, this is a deep dive with the excellent jazz singer Georgia Mancio
- Having a vocal injury as a recording artist
- Habilitating her voice with Gillyanne
- Being a singer and lyric writer, and the influences in her lyric writing
Plus excerpts from two of her stunning songs from the album Quiet Is The Star
3. The Breathy-Light Archetype exercises from our This Is A Voice book (S5 Ep2)
- For this new format in season 5 Gillyanne takes me step by step through exercises from the book for the breathy-light archetype
- I demonstrate "Arthur the Rat" using the clear/strong and breathy/light archetypes
- Gillyanne prods me to speak with different breathy-light versions
- And we do it wrong - the pushed version that makes Jeremy go dizzy!
Every podcast episode we do is different so choosing is hard! There are more Best Bits to come next week
Get the This Is A Voice book here https://amzn.to/3A9steN
My article, Hydration and the Vocal Folds - But What If I'm Wrong? is here
https://vocalprocess.co.uk/hydration-vocal-folds/
Verdolini et al article on Changes in Phonation Threshold Pressure With Induced Conditions of Hydration is here
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0892199705801390
The EFAD video tutorial on hydration is here
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uriEzqrYrLM
Georgia Mancio's details and album are here https://www.instagram.com/georgiamancio/ (click on Linktree in her bio to buy the album)
Get the One Minute Voice Warmup app here, it's got a 4.9star rating
Appstore https://apps.apple.com/gb/app/one-minute-voice-warmup/id1212802251
Google Play https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=co.speechtools.warmup&hl=en_GB&pli=1
We've also got this! ↓
The 5 Days to Better Singing Teaching course online, with voice coaching techniques, vocal articulation exercises and a LOT more for the up-to-date singing teacher is here https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/5-days-to-better-singing-teaching
For the best self-guided learning check out the Vocal Process Learning Lounge - 16 years of vocal coaching resources (over 600 videos) for less than the price of one private singing lesson. Click and scroll down the page for the free previews
https://vocal-process-hub.teachable.com/p/the-vocal-technique-learning-lounge
For real 1-1 attention on your own voice, book a voice coaching session in the singing studio with Jeremy or Gillyanne
https://drgillyannekayesjeremyfisherinspirationsession.as.me/schedule.php
If you want to discover if our singing teacher training programme works for YOU, message us - we can share the process for joining Cohort23.
Sign up for the Vocal Process newsletter https://vocalprocess.co.uk/build-your-own-tilting-larynx/
Check out our brand new Voice Journal, written with Rayvox's Oren Boder
https://www.rayvox.co.uk/products/voice-journal
Find us - follow us on the socials!
🐦 Twitter - https://twitter.com/Vocalprocess
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#thisisavoice #vocalcoach #singingteacher #voice #vocalwarmup
This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. Hello and welcome to This is a Voice Episode. No, done that wrong already. Great. Hello. This Is A Voice Season 6 Episode 15.
Gillyanne:The podcast where we get Vocal about voice.
Jeremy:I'm apparently Jeremy Fisher.
Gillyanne:And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes,
Jeremy:and welcome to the Best Bits and apparently the worst bits as well. Uh, part one. Do you know it's a year and seven months since we did the best bits of.
Gillyanne:And how many podcast episodes have we done since then?
Jeremy:Forty-three! We have a lot of stuff to get through. So buckle up because this is going to be a 15 hour podcast.
Gillyanne:Yeah, but they're not gonna get all 43, are they? Remember when we're talking about best bits, where the way that we've filtered things is which ones have been the most highly listened to or watched?
Jeremy:Yep.
Gillyanne:In other words, the ones that you consider the best bits, and then some of our personal favorites. And so if you missed these episodes, now's your chance to see if it's something you'd like to dig into over the, you know what period that's coming up.
Jeremy:Yeah. Okay. So the last time we did a Best Bits was May the 13th 2021, and that was our own Best Bits So Far Part 2. The very next episode that we did was hugely popular. This was Vocal Folds and Hydration.
Gillyanne:Oh, yes. Such an interesting topic. And you did a lot of research into that, didn't you?
Jeremy:I did, yeah. So let's hear a little excerpt from that now. We made a statement, um, about hydration. About hydration and the whole thing about hydration. And it was interesting because four different people came up afterwards and said, but I thought it was, and the statement that we made was, it takes about four hours for water to get into your system and as far as the Vocal folds and basically to hydrate you. And, uh, people came up and they said, well, I thought it was two hours. And somebody else said, well, I thought it was a one hour, well, I thought it was 25 minutes. Well, I thought it was instant. So eight was another one we heard. Yeah. And I think the last one was about 25 minutes. Yep. Yeah. So. We were not daunted. No, I mean we, we, we both headed off down rabbit holes. We did. We did. And boy, are there some rabbit holes? So the first thing that we did was we went to the literature to find out who has the definitive answer, how long does it take to hydrate? And um, I've actually written an article about it, which I'm going to, to publish with this podcast. Do you want to say a little bit, first of all, about systemic versus topical? Yeah. Yeah. So the first thing is, what type of hydration are we talking about? There's two types, basically. One is systemic, which is your entire body, and the other is topical, which is basically spraying onto the surface. Um, bear in mind that if you drink something, it can't be topical because when you drink, your Vocal folds close completely, and the the water goes nowhere near your Vocal folds. If it did, you'd cough. So the only way that you can get topical water onto your Vocal folds is by steam or nebulizer. So we don't hydrate the Vocal folds directly. We hydrate the body, we hydrate the body. And the idea of the systemic is that therefore, That water has gone into the body and it assists with efficiency of Vocal fold vibration. And I'm gonna let you talk a bit more about this. I might ask you questions as we go along. Okay. Do, yeah. Okay. So the first thing, um, I went to is what is hydration? And the moment you go into the question, what is hydration? You go into the question, what is dehydration? And there wasn't even one that I'd not heard of, which is euhydration EU hydration, which is a balanced hydration. So, um, hydration, dehydration. Um, and there's another one, there's a, there's a further one, isn't there? You've just said it. Eu No, there's, there's, um, uh, like super hydration where you have too much. Okay. But I'll come to that in a moment. So the question first is, what's dehydration? What are the effects of dehydration? And to that, you go to various papers and a lot of people have done, um, studies on dehydration and their effects. And I'd want to shout out to Katherine Verdolini Abbott because she has done some great papers with Titze on, um, the effects on the Vocal folds of hydration. They're very good. So, um, we will put links to them. Uh, certainly you can read the abstract. You might not be able to read the whole thing. And she chose particularly as her, uh, feature phonation threshold pressure. Now phonation threshold pressure is what is the least amount of energy force that you can use to get your Vocal folds vibrating? What is the gentle sound that you can make and the least effort that you can do, essentially? Mm-hmm. And what she discovered, really, and I am paraphrasing here, so um, Katherine if you are listening then I do apologize if I get it wrong. Um, what they discovered is that dehydration affects the phonation presh threshold pressure. I always have a problem with that phrase, ptp. Just say ptp. It affects the ptp, uh, to make that threshold go up. So you have to work slightly harder. So the effect for the singer, therefore, is it's going to feel more effortful to make a sound. We are talking tiny. We are talking fractional, but it, they have to work slightly harder. It's almost like the Vocal folds are slightly stickier and they might need a higher breath pressure. So they're having to take a bigger breath to get the Vocal folds vibrating. Yeah, and again, I don't think the effect is enormous, but it's there and if you are a highly experiencing, you're going to notice it. Well, and I think you might also notice something like that over time. You know, if you are talking all day on Zoom and assuming. Perhaps your hydration levels aren't what they need to be, your systemic hydration levels. Then as you go through the day, you might find that you're having to push harder, take more breaths in order to continue speaking. I would say those are the sorts of things that might be a sign that your oration threshold pressure. Increasing. Yeah. So what did you find out, Jeremy, in terms of amounts? Cool. Yeah. Are you ready for that? That was really fascinating. I was really surprised when you told me this. The first place I think you should go, um, if you're interested in this, there's a brilliant three minute video on hydration. It's a tutorial video by the European Federation of the Association of Dieticians. And I'll give you the link in the show notes. It's absolutely packed with information in three minutes, and it's really fascinating because the first thing I didn't realize was that, uh, the recommendations are for different amounts of water for men and women. Obviously different amounts of water for children, but even within the women, you've got different amount of water. um, women, a different amount for pregnant women and a different amount for lactating women. And actually it's the lactating women that need the most water. But even within that, this is where the fun starts, is the recommendations. And there are two different bodies that they refer to. Um, it boils down to approximately two liters a day for men and one and a half liters a day for women. But. I'm so glad, cuz I find it really hard to drink two liters of water. Yeah, but it depends where you live. Because in Europe the recommendation. Um, is two liters a day for men and one and a half liters a day for women. But if you are in Poland, it's half a liter more for each one. And I have no idea why Poland is different, um, because Mexico is two and one and a half and China is two and one and a half. So in general, around the world, it's two liters a day and one and a half liters. So that was really fascinating. So it doesn't actually depend on where you live, it's just the findings differ. It's the findings. But now let's go to where your water comes from, which is, is it liquid or is it from food? Because And what kind of liquid? Well, what kind of liquid? Absolutely. So if you just go with liquid and food, 70 to 80% of your liquid intake comes. Your water intake comes from liquid, so it can be water, but it can also be tea, coffee, alcohol, beer, soft drinks. It can be anything. That's all counted as liquid intake. 70% to 80%. 20% to 30% comes from food, which you really wouldn't necessarily notice. Soup. Soup is an obvious one, but meat, yes. I mean, literally anything you eat has water content in it of some kind. And didn't you look at a study where they had to stop their subjects eating lettuce? Yes. Because that's a high water content. Yes. Lettuce. Cucumber, tomatoes. Yep. There was a, oh, I gotta mention that study because it is amazing. Mm. Uh, this is Marshall at al March, 2021. It's absolutely up to date. They go in depth into hydration on pulmonary function. Now they're dealing with, with breathing in particular, but the, the way that they've written up their paper is amazing. They are so detailed. They've got every, they list every piece of equipment, but not just, They actually have catered for, excuse the pun, um, almost every variable that might happen. And one of the things that they did was they took a food diary before the people did their experiment. And they had to do the experiment over two sessions because one session was on systemic, uh, hydration, which was drinking and the other was on topical hydration, which was inhaling, and they had to do the two on separate occasions. And so what they insisted that the subjects did was that they ate exactly the same thing each time. So really controlling variables, really controlling the variable. And they checked the air quality, they checked the water content in the atmosphere. They did all sorts of things in that paper. I wanna go one more place. Which is what type of dehydration are we talking? Mm. And actually this is, in a way, this is really important because, um, we are talking about hydration, but hydration is the opposite of something. Mm. Um, and I, you, you know, you must drink water, you must drink water because you need to keep hydrated. But from what? Mm. So I wanna talk about dehydration. And there are two types and they are really interesting to know about. The first one is hyperosmolar , which is water loss and an increase in sodium. So your water drains away, but your salt is left there. Mm. And that's hyperosmolar. So you've got an intensification of some of the electrolytes? You do. And the second one is hyponatremia, which is both water and salt loss. And there's a famous anecdote about this? Anthony Andrews was doing the role of Professor Higgins in my Fair Lady in the West End and collapsed, fortunately not on stage. He was, um, he'd just finished the, the show and gone home, I think, but he collapsed and he ended up on a drip in hospital for three days and he, in fact, he was unconscious, not for the three days, but he was unconscious. And that was hyponatremia because he'd been drinking too much water. And he estimated that he'd been drinking between five and seven liters a day, and just anytime he went off stage, he was swigging the water before, during, and after. And probably visiting the loo. And because of that extreme use of water, he'd actually diluted his tissue salts so far that he lost consciousness. So it is possible to drink more water than is good for your body. It is. We're going to do our next little excerpt from June the 11th 2021, and this is Song, Lyrics and Life with Georgia Mancio.
Gillyanne:This actually was one of our most favourite, and also I think most moving guest podcast.
Jeremy:It was very personal. Yeah. Yeah. It was a really great interview with Georgia.
Gillyanne:If you don't know Georgia's work, she's a wonderful lyric writer and also a jazz singer. And she talks in a very honest way about how she and Alan Broadbent in particular came to write the set of songs that they wrote as a result of the pandemic. Go check it out.
Georgia:Tell the river to run free and find me, even if the tide is wrong it still will rush to sea. Tell my children to grow strong and healthy. Even if my body's gone, they will remember me. When the shadows pull too long, the sun will seem to lose its shine. On reflection over time, the face, the smile they see will still be mine.
Jeremy:That was Grammy winning pianist composer Alan Broadbent and prize winning soloist, jazz person, Georgia Mancio. Hello, Georgia. Hi. Hi Georgia. I wanted just in case people haven't picked this up, you two know each other and I just want to find out
Gillyanne:just a bit
Jeremy:how you met. Go.
Georgia:I'm trying to remember when it was, but I'm not entirely sure because I think recently every time is morphed, isn't it? In 2015, I must have been run down because I got sort of sick. I got a cough that would not, I couldn't shift this cough. This is sort of ironic with Covid, but obviously way before and on and off, I had the cough in nine months and eventually I realized it was affecting my voice. I mean, literally from one day to the next, I couldn't suddenly pitch certain things and the GP, unfortunately, was totally unhelpful and suggested I might have reflux and any number of other things that weren't, just didn't add up to be honest with the issues. And eventually I got referred to E NT and they diagnosed cyst and said it was quite rare. There's about 10% of people who from a persistent cough can develop cyst. Wow. So, you know, so I suppose like an ulcer, you know, like something literally that you've just, you're constantly aggravating in the same spot. Um, and so he said, because already affecting your, your singing, not really my speaking voice, we just, we would've normally advised to do speech therapy, but because you're already beyond that, we would just have to cut it out. Which I think is probably the freakiest thing for any singer to hear. And I wasn't at all prepared, as in I didn't know anyone who'd had a similar procedure. Um, and you have all those worries of did I do something wrong? And, you know, everything that goes with it. It was kind of reassuring to know it was something, it was bad luck really, but it's still, the outcome is the same that you, you end up having to have surgery and being stuck, not singing for a while. After the surgery I had some, restorative voice care with an, an amazing lady called Louisa Langston, and quite intensive work actually. And then she left the uk she went back home and she suggested Gillyanne, but I don't think you knew each other personally, if I'm correct. She just now that knew your reputation, have I got that right or, that's interesting because actually we did, and I think she probably would remember. Louisa I worked with when she was at college as a singer. Ah. And she was referred to me because she needed a little bit of help and that's how I met her. And I've often wondered if that was the reason why she got interested in voice therapy and went off to be a speech and language therapist and specializing in working with singers. Cuz that was the Lewisham Voice Clinic, wasn't it? I think. Yes it was. I think what's tricky for singers when you've had a cyst and it's on a particular part of the Vocal fold, obviously it's only on one Vocal fold, not both, but it interferes with the vibration. And then because of the, kind of the length and tensioning of the Vocal folds, what then happens is that there'll be an area in your range, very typically where it feels stiff, you know, everything is, is stiffened up because it's like after any operation then you have to shake it free. And what I remember when we first started working together was that there was this dodgy area that you, you were kind of already navigating around, you know, you were managing around it by kind of backing off, which by the way was a very wise strategy, but you really wanted to be more on top of it. And that's what the initial work was about, wasn't it kind of shaking that free, getting your confidence back in that area? Yes. And being sure you were doing it safely, I think. Mm-hmm., actually, I didn't explain fully, really what happened is by the time I came to do the surgery, the cyst had gone, but there was a lot of scar tissue. And I think that was more complicated a recovery than if it had just been the cyst that, so this inflexibility was really, it felt enormous to me. But then I suppose you, you are so hyper aware, aren't you, of every change in your voice. And it's so odd to go and work with someone who's never heard you before and say, have to explain, I can normally do this, this, and this, but now I can't. You know, I can't. And yes, there's a lot of fear I think that comes from damaging further or you know, just getting, getting back to where you were, like you said, the confidence. There's a sense of loss as well. Because, um, if you were able to do something and you were able to do it to a very high level, then not being able to do it, there's a real fear that you'll never be able to do it again, and that life will just be so much more narrow. Yeah. Yeah. I think it's very easy for singers to say, but it doesn't feel like it used to. And that in itself can be a loss. And, um, in sort of my practice when I'm working with, when I worked with you and, and with other singers to rehabilitate them kind of back ready for work, um, I'd kind of want to guide people towards, well, no, it might not feel the same, but actually now we've got is a, is a new you, we're building a new set of sensations and eventually you will be able to rely on. I want to come to the fact that you went through the habilitation process and I first of all want to say to both of you, congratulations cuz what a great job you've both done. Um, I mean your voice now is so flexible and also so precise, which I think is amazing. And we are, we are gonna hear another track from your album, which later on, which I think is lovely. before we go there, before the, I have a very specific question for you. I want you to imagine in your mind, the end of a performance, the end of a festival, the end of a recording gig, and producing the final version of the lyrics. Do they all feel the same? Oh gosh, that's a great question. Um, they don't all feel exactly the same. No, I think the end of anything live, there's that mix of exhaustion, but really happy exhaustion. You know, like when you've done a really good bout of exercise and you are enjoying that moment and you're a little bit hyper still, and you're also thinking, I'm kind of looking forward to having a cup of tea and a cuddle with my cat that definitely have that association with coming over from a gig, you know, and the after gig and blah, blah, blah. Ending a recording always feels a little anti-climactic because you are really tired in a different way. there. I don't know. It's a bit deader, isn't it? You don't have that, you don't have the other people around. You know, at the end of a gig is, is the nicest thing because then you can connect to the audience and you know, you, I love to do that chat, sell the albums, whatever, but just to talk and get feedback because you know, you, that's the point, isn't it? You're doing it to connect to, to other people and where, whereas I think with the recording, you are all just, thank goodness that's done and you are worrying, have I got it? You know? Did that piano squeak in the right, wrong place and da da da finishing a lyric. Uh, yes. I think, I suppose it's, um, because I'm writing with, uh, other people, you know, collaborating, there's always that sense that I'll send something off, say to Alan and, and not always be sure it's finished, because, you know, I'm waiting for him to say yes, no, or can you change that line, that word. So you kind of don't want to get too hung up on. That's it, that's the two . Because sometimes it, it isn't, and sometimes we've both gone back a while later to change something here or there. Not, not often, but we have. So there is sometimes that sense of, oh, you know, it could still be a work in progress slightly. And maybe the same goes for recording because you know, you've got then all the postproduction to come, all the art, everything that makes it into a product. Whereas a gig is the best to me because that's, it's done and I love that. And then you move on and the next night or the next year, whatever has it's own flavor and it doesn't have to keep on reliving, reliving. It's, it's sort of, Happened. So if we listen to some of the title track. Yep. Um, and this is the second half of the title track. Quiet is the star. As I close my eyes, I see the sky, I watch the birds go by. They seem to tell us we too can find, Which way to follow, which ties to bind. And in their flight, in tomorrow's light, So Quiet Is The Star tonight. That is so lovely. Ah, you have such great breath control. I think I remember us talking about slow heartbeat and breathing with that slow heartbeat to set the atmosphere. Yes.
Jeremy:If you are watching on YouTube, you'll see that we are actually coordinating at the moment in what we're wearing and we are wearing it for quite a good reason. And that's because I made them. So I'm wearing a, uh, blue and gold paisley waistcoat, and Gillyanne is wearing a blue and fawn jacket.
Gillyanne:Oh no, it's not fawn. It's blue and pale gray.
Jeremy:It's mushroom. It's taupe. I have no idea what color it is.
Gillyanne:Yeah, no, you've got no, you don't have any taupe on yours. In any case, it's a bolero, everybody, and it is lovely. I'm super pleased with it. Look at this nice nehru collar. Nice job, Jeremy.
Jeremy:Thank you. That was the first jacket I've ever made.
Gillyanne:Yeah. So now you know what Jeremy does in his spare time.
Jeremy:Yes. Oh yeah. If you're watching on YouTube, look out for new waist coats. I'm making one right now. The next one, this is season five, and again, we changed the format very slightly and we started doing exercises from the This Is A Voice book because the podcast is called, This Is A Voice. And we decided that we wanted to take you through the exercise, but also talk about what was going on behind the scenes and how we wrote it.
Gillyanne:And actually it was a nice thing to do in the podcast cuz then people could hear how we do the exercises ourselves as voice users.
Jeremy:And also because it's a male and female voice, then you get to hear both sides.
Gillyanne:So if you want to know what the Breathy light archetype is like, have a listen to that one. Number 42, the breathy light archetype. So, step one. Using a gentle fff or shh sound, puff a little bit of air out through your mouth. Allow the air to float out rather than being pushed or directed.
Jeremy:Okay. Can I do a pushed one? FFF SHH now you, you might use that type of energy and drive if you're doing a voiced fricative and unvoiced fricative exercise, but for this exercise, we just want the gentle version. fff shh
Gillyanne:I like that because the thing I'm noticing in particular is not only that there's more volume in those fricatives, but the speed of air is different.
Jeremy:Speed of air is very different.
Gillyanne:So you're kind of more letting the air out on the sound rather than directing it as we've actually said.
Jeremy:Oh the air is so much slower.
Gillyanne:And that's critical to this exercise. Okay. Step two. Now, bring a hand up close to your mouth and repeat the, or shh. Notice that you can feel the air coming onto your hand.
Jeremy:Fff, shh, fff, shh. There is something interesting that I will say, which is when you do the F followed by the sh the stream of air hits your hand at a different point. With the F it's directly in front of me, and with the sh is much further down on my hand.
Gillyanne:I'm just interested as well, because you know, in the last podcast we used a little exercise that I'd learned from the late Lyn Darnley, where she'd get actors to feel the breath coming onto their hand, by getting them to lick it. What is the difference for you between just feeling the breath and then feeling it on the fricatives in terms of coldness of air on the hand.
Jeremy:Do you want me to lick my hand?
Gillyanne:Actually, I do.
Jeremy:Eww. I actually, this is really interesting because there's not that much difference. When I lick the hand, I can still feel pretty much the same amount of air.
Gillyanne:What about if you just blow air?
Jeremy:The air stream isn't as directed. If I just do a sort of hah thing the Airstream is less strong, so it's much more focused in and direct when I'm doing the fricatives. And also the air is slightly warmer when I just do an AH.
Gillyanne:I did love getting into that detail. Okay, so where, where the heck are we? We're on step three?
Jeremy:Blooper.
Gillyanne:Say, Hey or hi, as if greeting someone you like as they sit down close to you, an intimate sound created without projecting your voice.
Jeremy:Hey. Hi.
Gillyanne:Oh, that's so comforting.
Jeremy:Step four, say, Hey, hi, and hello using the breathy light tone you practiced in steps one and two. Make sure you breathe in between each sound. Hey, hi, hello! Okay, makes me laugh. Yeah me too Me too
Gillyanne:Step five, as in the previous exercise, it's important that you begin to extend the sounds so that you can get comfortable with the vocal setting. Read a line using this vocal setting, repeat the line and elongate every syllable.
Jeremy:Okay. So I'm just going to go back to my Hey hi, once there was a young rat named Arthur who could never make up his mind once there was a young rat named Arthur, who could never make up his mind.
Gillyanne:I'd like you to do some comparison. So if you read it now with a clear sound, you know, quite a clear, strongish sound. And then you used the breathy light and then different versions of breathy light.
Jeremy:Okay. Clear-strong, the breathy light I've just done, and then different versions. Once there was a young rat named Arthur who could never make up his mind. Once there was a young rat named Arthur who could never make up his mind. Once there was a young rat named Arthur who could never make up his mind. And that third version is sort of halfway between the two. We have air leaking out, but I'm not pushing it. Now to the pushed version. Once there was a young rat named Arthur who could never make up his mind.
Gillyanne:And really because of vocal efficiency, that's a sound and a setting that you might use for a bit of a Vocal effect or for a little bit of characterization. But if for for example, you were reading a book as a voiceover artist, you wouldn't want to be doing your narrative in that voice.
Jeremy:That is so much airflow and speed. I've actually done dizzy, just doing one sentence.
Gillyanne:I think also what's very interesting about this, which is why we wrote the mimicry chapter in this way is that we respond differently to those different voice archetypes don't we? We hope that brought you as much joy as your mince pies and tipple, so
Jeremy:there is a part two, so stay tuned for part two next week. This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This is a voice.