Is Beyoncé teaching you this week? Authenticity, rhythm & positive pedagogy with Louise Gibbs

Part 2 of our deep conversation with jazz singer, composer & educator Louise Gibbs.
Has Beyonce been teaching you this week? Moving from imitation to authenticity, finding your "groove" and dealing with bad self-talk.
***Warning! Some swearing, mostly from Gillyanne***

0:00 Dealing with bad self-talk
1:37 Artistry - who is teaching you this week?
3:53 Study practice rehearse perform
7:11 Being in the moment
9:50 Dealing with self-editing singers
12:04 Why Louise is a singer not a pianist
13:43 Jeremy on communication modes
15:07 Know yourself and your outlook
17:03 Louise & Jeremy on the importance of rhythm
21:07 Different genre different rhythm feel
23:45 The importance of groove, beat & pulse
27:30 Positive pedagogy (we agree)

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Transcript

0:00

What would you say if a singer's done a performance no matter the genre, and they come off and the first thing they think about and obsess about is the thing or the things that they did wrong, what would your advice be to that singer? Louise first? My advice is what are all about the enormous number of things you got right? Why focus on those? I often say to people, I said, look, like, why should it stop you? There's so many good things in there and focus on the positives. I say to people, you know, honestly, if think about an orchestral performance, said, if the orchestra had to stop because one person got something wrong, there would be no piece that had ever ended Correct. Hello and welcome to, this is a Voice, season seven, episode 12, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And she's back. We have Louise again. Hi Louise. It's lovely to be back. Brilliant to have you back and we had such a great conversation last time, so we're just gonna carry on from here. we're already talking about it really. But something I remember from um, the keynote was that you asked the question, can singing teachers teach performance? Have I remembered that right? No, can they teach artistry? Can they teach artistry. Okay. And we are talking about that, but could you share more thoughts on that with us please? I think this is where I said to somebody that came and thanked me for saying, your students just have to know stuff. And I said, yeah, I'm afraid so be an artist means that you know the tradition, you really know what's going on. And in my experience all my most successful students or my most, like the people who have really of got inside it are people who listen a lot, but they don't just listen casually. They listen and, they know. They start off imitating, but that's what makes 'em good. I say. So who's teaching you this week? And, you know, like, has been Beyonce, been teaching you this week, you know, Oh, nice. Has Olivia Dean been teaching you this week? You know, has, uh, Cecile um, McLoren Salvant been teaching you this week? You know, and that's what it's, I mean, I'll, I'll set people. Okay. So who are you listening to and what sort of things did you hear and what did you notice about what they tend to do and, and those kinds? So, So that to me is study, that's when people know how to do things. Like when I said study, practice uh, rehearse, perform um, you know, that's study. and then the practices when people imitated and they think, oh yeah, I can really do that. You know, show me, like, let me show you what so-and-so does on that. Okay. And we have a bit of a giggle about it, and then we move on. And I said, well, so how would do that in what you might want? What are you taking away from that? Okay, how would you put that into what you are doing? Does it make sense? Does it, is it too much? Is it too little? Do you wanna do more? This sort of thing. Hey, can you turn it inside out? Can you reverse it? And so there's a lot of playing going on, and I think this is this Mm. and I think that just comes from my, my jazz background and it's just a natural thing for me. So this improvisation in the, in the small sense comes about from that studying and that particular way of studying and listening and imitating and, And practicing. And then the rehearsing, you know, the rehearsing means how do you put that into your performance? then the performance is I make the distinction that everything should be behind you. It should be in the automatic then. If you are still doing your practicing while you're performing or you're studying while you're performing even worse and, and going around that circle through everything and you go over and over again. And that's helped my students a lot because they says, oh gosh, I realize I'm studying while I think I'm performing, but I'm actually studying. And I said, yeah, that's right. Yeah, that's really nice. So there's a way in which they're not really being present in the performance. There's a, there's an, this is really interesting. And I'm going to pin you down to percentages because I'm that sort of person. Because I have a thing, which is your job when you are on stage is communication and expression. And the way I think of it is 90 10. So it's 90% communication and 90% artistry, and 90% just doing what you do. And then occasionally you'll go, actually, this bit is still a bit tricky. I need to go back into the 10% technique brain. What was the instruction that I gave myself? Oh, it was that. Great. Done. And back into, so I'm still going with the 90 10. Are you going with a hundred percent artistry and communication? No I would go with 90 10 and I'm so pleased. I tell you why, certainly as a jazz musician, because you are a composer, as you are a performer, so you can't be completely in performance mode. In fact, I would say it's even more because you are interacting with what somebody's presented you, and it can't be 90 10. That's too little. might be doing 50 50 at some points because you are going into that, you're listening to what's presented. You are thinking, okay, I need to adjust this in order to accommodate that. Or there's nothing set, often. So that's why it can really vary. generally In a performance I could say that from a technical point of view, you have, you, yes. There are times when you go, yes, I need to remember to support here at this point. Okay. Or this is, you know, and then after a while you realize, because that's just a moment's rehearsal. And then if you've performed it enough, it just becomes, it, you, it's Mm-hmm. gone to the background. So do you see that there are uh, these levels that we go, we go back, oh, that's rehearsal Absolutely. you're not studying it. It's not like you don't know it, Absolutely. So Do you notice That's a very interesting, and the jazz world is I think's out on its own in this way. Because I know that when I'm rehearsing something I've studied it, I've practiced it, I'm rehearsing it. I know that I won't know that piece until I've performed it at least twice, because the first time is what's gonna happen? Yes exactly. No, the second time is that terrible thing happened, now I need to correct it. Mm-hmm. Um, So it's gonna be at least twice before I even know how the piece is gonna go. What's so interesting about the jazz world is that it's built in that you never really repeat a performance. So you are constantly creating every performance that you do, and I'm wondering how much. I know this is a weird question, but how much security can you have in a situation where you are creating like that every time you stand up? I think you, know. I don't know whether it's personality, but I think you just have to say, okay, that was done and I can't do anything about it now. It's irrecoverable. So. Goodbye. And that's Yeah. why you have to learn to be in the moment. Because something, while you are thinking about what happened back then, you are not listening properly and somebody may be a gift that you don't realize. Yep. that's, that's helping people to be confident enough to do that. Some of us are just silly enough that's the only way we feel safe. Because when I was, I think this is why I was not a classical pianist or classical musician. It terrified me to duplicate something over and over again. It is terrifying. Yeah. it's such it, it's a you know, that degree of precision. and the mistakes to me, just learned how to be uh, how to turn a mistake into something that could be interesting. Often isn't, but it, there might be the occasion where it is So let me sort of, put really both of you on the spot in this respect. Yeah. What would you say Not for the time Gillyanne. To no. What would you say if a singer's done a performance no matter the genre, and they come off and the first thing they think about and obsess about is the thing or the things that they did wrong, what would your advice be to that singer? Louise first? My advice is what are all about the enormous number of things you got right? Why focus on those? I often say to people, I said, why should it stop you? There's so many good things in there and focus on the positives. I say to people, you know, honestly, if think about an orchestral performance, said, if the orchestra had to stop because one person got something wrong, there would be no piece that had ever ended Correct. I love that. Yeah, because singers will self-edit, we'll do a masterclass somewhere or maybe are giving a lesson, oh, I got that wrong. What's your advice? Okay, I've got two. One is S T F U and the other is cuz I think it's a myth. And I've got a little story, I don't think I've ever told this on the podcast before, but when I was at college, there was a flautist there who was telling a story. Flute teacher was telling a story and he said he had a pupil who was due to do half a recital, the first half of the recital, then somebody else was doing the second half. So he played his program and it went really badly and he came off in the interval and he went, I just want to go on and do it all again. I so wish I could do it all again. And the organizer said you have that opportunity because the second person hasn't turned up. So go on and play the play the whole thing again. And he did. And it was worse. Oh gosh, And I love that because we all have a belief that we, if we could just go back on and do it all again, it would be so much better. And it's a beautiful example of, no, it wouldn't. You're carrying the same stuff around with you. It's quite a dark story in a way, but do you think that you, maybe that person at that moment was, madly self-editing? Yes. I don't want to do it as badly as last time. Instead of, okay, what the fuck? I was crap last time. Now I'm just gonna go and enjoy myself. It's actually a dark lesson because it's a belief that I think a lot of people carry around. I could have done it better if only I write a whole article on if only, if only as a really negative space to be in. Because it negates everything that you've just done in order that you can correct one thing that you're worried about. I that's why I say, all about all the things that you've achieved, and sometimes I have spent time going through them, Yes. Yes. and they go, oh yeah, okay. Interesting. It is, it's fascinating. It's, I think when we strive for perfection, we're never gonna get it. But people don't realize that because perfection is what? Why the evaluation is so important. And I love the fact, cuz you know, I had the opportunity to be a solo pianist and passed all the exams and all of that stuff at college. And I went, I don't want to do this for precisely this reason. I didn't want to go around playing the same pieces for a year by myself. I loved interacting with people and I loved being, I loved, actually loved co-creating, and I didn't even realize that at the time. So whenever you are working with somebody else, The combination of your, both of your lives individually are at different places every time you step on the stage. So every time you step on the stage, you're coming from a different place. And that is creativity of its own and just, and then there's, you never repeat anything because you're always, both of you coming from a different place. Mm-hmm. well You're bringing both your gifts together, aren't you? And so it squares it rather than pluses kind of, Mm. it That's Nice thought. Also, honestly, being in the recording studio, you realize that people do not produce the same line over and over again. There's always variations, there's always little nuances of stuff. And you go, oh, take five was good. Yeah, let's use take five. Unless you are someone who's very geared, towards a certain type of, recording con contract for other people. And you're good at just, I hear what I did. I repeat. No, there That's a different skill. Yeah. people who do jingles, for instance. I know I, Yes. Yeah. I've had students in the past so I know. And it was interesting, I felt more confident about it as a singer than as a pianist. I got there eventually But that's really interesting. Yeah. I think I'm gonna go off it a little tangent now because I want to talk about people's communication mode. There are people, I sing, I coach singing, but my communication mode is piano. That's where I live actually. And all the knowledge that I bring to singing and bring to Vocal coaching and bring to music coaching and bring to presentation coaching comes from the piano playing and comes from the way that I express myself on piano. And it's so many people that I Vocal coach now have never heard me play. And because we're doing so much online now, and it's you need to hear me play because then you'll understand where I'm coming from. I think it's really interesting to help people find what their mode of communication is. And there are sub-genres within piano playing, within singing, within instrumental playing within music in general. There are sub-genres that you go, you're really gonna fit here, even if it's a genre they've never sung. It's something I sometimes listen out for when we are coaching, which is where can I hear you? You fitting? Have you considered this area of repertoire? Have you considered listening to these people? And it's why I love the idea that you are getting your students to listen to somebody and go, what are they teaching you today? Love that idea. Yes. Any thoughts you want to share on that, Louise in response to Jeremy? Otherwise, I think we might move to positive pedagogy. Oh, yes. I, think it's about knowing yourself as a teacher or an accompanist or what, you know, it's understanding what you bring to the mix that maybe other people don't bring. I mean, I know that I have a, a rhythmic outlook and I think that helps people because I know one thing about that rhythmic outlook is it gives you fluency. If you can build rhythmic fluency into somebody's playing or singing, you have got that flow because fluency is, is flow or flow is fluency. And and the thing about rhythm is that for one thing, it always is in the body and it, we're not doing anything if it's not in the body. Whether it's or singing. I, I know that's a particular something I bring to what I'm doing, and I think that's what part of what makes jazz interesting for me, you've only got 12 different notes. Even a jazz singer has the 12, same 12 different notes that any other genre of music using um, equal temperament employs, but rhythm itself. And then, because for me, stylistic nuance often comes in rhythm and rhythmic phrase Ooh, placements. go to jump on that. We're gonna definitely jump on that. This isn't just jazz and popular music styles. This is something that is so missed. Yes. In other genres, I think. Language is everything talk to us. Absolutely. Totally. this, when you get into that kind of nitty gritty, you, can solve a number of really important issues and that they relate to authenticity. Cause so much about authenticity relates to this level of detail. Okay. So talk to us about rhythm. Because I really want to know, let's say that you have somebody in your studio and you go, you are not really getting the rhythmic tightness of this. How do you go about helping somebody to hear it, feel it, understand it, do it? It's, I think it's a very long term process. Now just something very interesting. In the jazz world, you know, swing. is, Is the time feel that defines what I call classic jazz and very, very few, there's very few musics have it in it. There's some R&B have that 12/8 feel. swing isn't there. So you, you find that this is where the glaring inauthenticity, in that stylistic sense. and I mean I, you can tell a person who sings the features of a jazz song, but without this approach to, to, um, to time and time feel and rhythm, it's going to sound somebody's singing from the outside. And this, I think there's no, there's no easy answer to this because it takes time and it takes a lot of listening. I mean, I was lucky cuz I grew up with it. So it was already there. But for young people who don't have it, if they're really, they have to be dedicated. And this is what it requires. This is why in many ways, you don't have a natural mother tongue, you have to find one and you have to be dedicated to it. I'm talking about a musical Mm-hmm. Understood. Yes. why you have to know stuff. You have to know stuff and not because it's not knowledge necessary, but you just have to have that listening. And you can't get away from that. It just takes time. But how do I get people acquainted with it is an interesting one. I always link arms with my students and move with them so that they can get that feel, because without that movement. Hmm. and if, if the, if the larger part of the body, I have ideas about the way that people feel time. I always feel that the slowest beat is covered by the, in the heaviest part of the body. And so it has to be in this heavy part so that for instance, you know as a pianist that you are always thinking if you are using your digits, you are not thinking like that very often, , but you are, they're in, they're grouped in some way so that the group, so you've, so the thing about jazz is that we've got a matrix, let's say of 1, 2, 3, 4, 1, 2, 3, 4. But we have to do lots of breathing patterns that don't fit that 1, 2, 3, 4. you have to get people able on an offbeat, which is Mm-hmm. A coordination issue. Hooray. Mm-hmm. I'm dealing with coordination issues, not just stylistic issues or oral ones. so you have to deal with that body, movement, that hearing, that delivery of the, of the of the syllable, whatever it is. I dunno, this is a, is this a long way around me? Oh, no, I love it. This is amazing. Love it. Louise, why weren't you there in my early musical life? I wasn't in my early musical life! I have, I have a very poor sense of rhythm. Because I was taught to count correctly, and it's really hard. And actually Jeremy is one of the the people who helped me to find that sense of rhythm because the way that he plays has that flow and then I can connect with that flow. And I honestly think that certainly in my background, which obviously is quite a long time ago with my classical music training, you know, it linked with the idea that I wasn't good at maths and counting, and therefore that embodiment of rhythm, I'm fascinated by what you're talking about. Not just that you link arms with the students, but that they feel it in different parts of their body. I think this is really interesting. there's another, There's another thing for me as well, which again goes with everything you've been saying so far, which is different genres, different music genres have different rhythm feels. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And I have a very specific incident in my life where I'd been a classical pianist. I'd worked in opera repetiteuring. Mm-hmm. So I'd be playing for big opera productions and stuff like that. And then started to move into musical theater and that I was quite good at it until I sat in the pit for the first time with a musical theater band and I was actually playing keyboard one in Les Miserables. And it was my first show and I was all over the place because I didn't realize that I was supposed to connect with the bass player. I could hear the kit, I could hear the drum kit, but connecting with the bass player, because a lot of his stuff was doubled in my piano part. And I was all over the place and I suddenly went, is that what I'm supposed to do? Oh, that's very different. Okay. And it's double down and concentrate. And j I was like, actually I was like this. I was actually playing with my ear right to the bass player because it's like, I have to connect with this guy. He knows what he's doing in this style. This is a style I'd not done before. And that was such a revelation to me about the fact that having a a kit having a rhythm section and I was essentially part of the rhythm section was such a different feel for me. And that took a little bit of time to coordinate, but now I can bring that back into the classical world and decide whether I'm gonna do it or not. Mm-hmm. And it's fascinating. It's why you're so good at doing score reduction. Yeah. He's fabulous at doing score reduction in classical. Anyway. no this really chimes with me because I'm always saying to my students, you know, cause when I run ensembles, to me, the bass player is the real heart of any ensemble. You there, it doesn't matter whether you're in jazz or in Pop. And also I think that it's also a feature of classical music, but we don't emphasize it. It's a bit like listening to sub tones. You know, you've, You've got the, it's the, beat is going on up here, but there's other things underneath. I'm just thinking about Wagner particularly. But, Yes because I, by the way I'm a big opera fan and we've got Opera North up here in Leeds and Yes. It's incredible. That's where I started my job, yes. and you find a parking place! Sorry, I digress. But anyway the, but feeling that, that whole idea of feeling the time and linking up with the bass, that's what makes it, it's about being groovy you can be groovy whatever music you play, it's about groove. Yes. Cause that's, it's that groove that not only gives that energy flow, but it's actually what brings, it's like everybody the all galley slaves, all rowing together. Yes. It's the stability of the music. Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. And you talk about this a lot, don't you? Oh, yeah. And it's why you are particularly enjoying now, it's a, a little evolution of your career around here. There are a number of instrumentalists, and Jeremy does some ensemble playing and it's Oh, so good. It's a joy, isn't it? Also, this is the really nice thing is that, different musics have different rhythms but beyond that, I love that, you hear it at the top, but there's other things going on underneath. Yeah. What immediately, what I think is that you have a pulse, or no, it's the other way around. You have a beat, but actually you have a pulse. And if you follow the beat, you'll be in time. Yes. But if you follow the pulse, you'll be in the groove. Yeah. exactly. And that's to do with, cause then you start coordinating breath and as soon as everything's lined up that's how you get people in that like I take very nervous performers, and this is sometimes how I deal with them, is by trying to get them more rooted in the body and help them coordinate their rhythm, their breathing patterns to, learn to do that better. And that solve quite a quite that, that skittishness, the skit skittish stuff. I know. I speak, to somebody who knows. And when I discovered that for I thought, oh wow, this is the secret. This is how I can learn to enjoy what I'm doing. I've just got to, I've gotta find that place that, that I know very well. It's ridiculous. Why? It's not I don't know it. I just didn't know how to reach it personally. And that's when you say, how do I help my students? Those are some of the things that they're the more arcane arts of teaching. Those things that you you do, that invisible stitching that you've been doing. Mm, Yeah, That's so interesting about Pulse as opposed to beat. Yes. I absolutely love it. And if you think about it, everything you've said, it's internal. Yes. That pulse and that connects us immediately to the self. And once I did, once did this in a masterclass a few years ago where somebody, and I actually did it on a classical aria where I got her to count the beats while she was singing, and then I got her. To sing at the same speed, but to count the every second beat or every third beat. And then I got her to do the whole thing and I was using the circle thing, so she was doing spokes of the wheel. And then she was doing the, half wheel and then she would do the whole thing. And so much change. By the time we got to the whole wheel feel pulse. So much had changed. The legato had changed. The tone color had changed, the phrasing had changed. Breath management. Breath management completely changed. It's so interesting. I, rhythm is for me is so important. And if it's, but only if it's wrong. yeah, If the rhythm is there, no problem. If the rhythm isn't there, you got problems. You are uncomfortable. I can see that You are uncomfortable when that happens. Yeah. And it does happen that sometimes I play with people who have a completely different rhythmic feel. That's very weird. Yeah. And it's really. Not, doesn't work for you. Does, it's uncomfortable. You don't gel. Should we move to the idea of any extra ideas about positive pedagogy, Louise, that'd to share with us? Positive pedagogy. The main point about positive pedagogy is that you have to have a pedagogy that works for training somebody or for teaching somebody who comes from scratch. You, Because so much teaching, and this is what I see is done as a response to things that they see wrong. And so I want that, the positive pedagogy is about how do you introduce people to a musical tradition or whatever in a way that presents everything as this is how it goes. Not you people do things and you go, oh, that's wrong.. And sometimes I've seen they don't even say what's wrong about it. This is where the lack of evaluation, you've made an evaluation, or at least you've expressed an opinion of about something you don't like. But it's not an evaluation. If it if it isn't backed up with reasons, it isn't of an evaluation if it isn't backed up with, this is how you would as a teacher, this is, and this is how you can get over that, through that, or however, way you wanna do The idea about positive pedagogy is that you should knowg to teach breath, you don't teach breath so that you wait till something goes wrong and then you address it. You just it's on your checklist. You like the pe, the positive pedagogy has a whole diagnostic linked to an evaluation. You see these two things go together Yep. You can go, oh yeah that's in place. Yes, that's in place. Yes, that's in place. That's great. We can move on and do this. That's not in place so this, and I, and because of this evaluation, and so this is now the teaching strategy that needs to go on and to deal with that. And sometimes, most of the time I've, I'm over time I'm developing strategies that work for almost most people. But every now and then come across somebody for whom it doesn't work. And that's interesting to me. Yes. Yeah, it is. I wanna pick, we're always learning, aren't we? We do something very similar. And the idea that so many teachers, I think, I dunno whether they're taught or whether they pick this up or whatever they do, but they have their checklist and they're going no, no, no, no. Not working. Not working, not working, not working. And the first thing that we say is yes, yes, yes, yes. What's working? Mm-hmm. It's the first process, which is you listen to a singer and you go, what are they doing? Well? Mm. What are they doing? Right? And do you know, this is really reassuring to my students because I'm seeing I've just had a whole raft of first year students at the University of Leeds and they've come in and it was so wonderful to say, you know, look, you know, you're doing this so well and this is the, because they expect to go from one teacher to another and sort of, you know, be told, oh, you know what has your teacher been doing with you? And you're saying, look, this is in place, that's in place, that's in place. It's really. Mmm. Reassuring to people to know It's good to be told, actually, you know, you do this really well. And so when you say to people like, you do this really well, and I said, but this area is, could do with some development. and, and that And that. And I, and the reason why is because of this, because this is working well and behind this is da da. You've got to give a kind of global account of, you know, and, and the, that assessment cause impacts the way you're gonna teach the person, you know, and what they, what you think are their priorities. And I do establish priorities with my students. Yes. choose three priorities Per semester. we say, okay, we'll address those ones. That's nice. Nice. Yeah. So they can track progress and so can you. And you can't deal everything, can you? No, absolutely not. No. notice. Yeah. That's the whole, that's the whole interest about diagnosis in this way is that you're going down your checklist and you, you have a, I mean, everybody has a checklist whether they realize it or not. It just depends what you put on it. But you're going down the checklist going good, good. Don't need to bother with that. Get fine. That's in place. That's in place. Something here is interesting, something here is going on, and often you end up with three or four different things and you, it's a bit like, it's a knot, and you go, which thread am I gonna pull? That will start to undo the others, which is the more important thread. And that's the one you can focus on. And you have to do that. Otherwise you're just going to launch into the first thing that you hear that you think doesn't work. And that's the problem with the brain dump. You know, that, I mean, it is natural that we do do a brain dump, you know, uh, which you call the checklist. Mm-hmm. Uh, We need to understand what our brain dump is. You know, we need to know the rationale. And often singing, teachers We need to know the rationale. And often singing teachers don't know that. Mm-hmm. Because they're, they're simply it's not actually a bad thing, but you know, they're wanting to reproduce the artistic values that they've been trained in. And sometimes that is in a non-conscious way. They're not aware of them. They're not aware of that context. I think it's one of the reasons why, Teachers draw great benefit from working with multiple genres because then they have to look at the rationale. They step back from being perhaps attached as an individual to some aspect of the training that they had as a singer, that they're kind of not conscious with them, that they're bringing that. But in some genres it's not needed. It becomes obvious once you start to Yeah. To work in different genres. It becomes obvious whether you are carrying a belief over or not. Yeah. Yeah. We started with self-awareness. And it does, as a singing teacher you are required really, to be a good one, you are required to have self-awareness because you need to know what you are bringing and any rules that you have in your head that you are carrying over to other people. Otherwise, we can't have that positive pedagogy. Mm-hmm. I mean, The singing teacher guide needs to be really conscious of themselves, I think. Well, I mean, We can't avoid bringing, what is own priorities, but just as long as, we've gotta be careful that they're not limiting what we're doing. Yeah. Yeah. Um, It's been a joy. It's been a complete joy talking to you. It's so interesting to have these conversations and we have to stop, I'm afraid. Yes. So thank you so much for doing this and coming back. I know we have lots more to talk about. People will be wanting you back. Louise. Is there, just before we close, is there anything you want to flag? Any of your own recordings? Any, anything you are up to that you want people to know about? I'm, I've been teaching certainly because, like with the pandemic or that kind of, performances just stopped. It's interesting. I feel like I'm singing better than ever Yeah. It it's not because the voice, I mean the voice is lost. It's lost a kind of ease and a bloom that it might have had when I was younger. But the thing about jazz is that it accommodates voices. Yes. Yes. And also, I think as you get more mature, your artistry develops. I think it's one of the big things. Absolutely. I think it's saving grace of getting old. We need to hear you perform more. Welcome to artistry! Absolutely. We'll, we will put the links to your CDs in the show notes. Yeah. Anything you want us to share, let us know. People can find you. It has been a pleasure. Thank you so much. We'll see you again. Thank you. It's been lovely Jeremy. Thank you Gillyanne. Absolute pleasure.