The Singer's Safe Haven - Building confidence through compassionate coaching

In This Is A Voice podcast S8 Ep8 Lisa Perks returns to talk about creating a safe space in the vocal studio for singers to discover their voice and individuality. Lisa shares with Dr Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher insights and techniques to nurture each singer on their vocal and emotional journey

00:00 No room for shame
01:32 Discussing the concept of good disagreement
03:39 The power of asking 'Why?'
04:50 Patient empowerment in medical contexts
07:32 Research on the impact of shame on musicians
11:18 Taking charge of what you do
12:54 Creating safe spaces for singers
17:26 The importance of singing for self-connection
18:52 The changing role of singing teachers
24:21 The importance of diagnosis in singing lessons
29:32 Singing as therapy doing

We're talking about:
Empowering Individuality: Emphasizing the importance of seeing each singer as a unique individual and respecting their personal vocal journey.
Creating Safe Spaces: Discussing the creation of a non-judgmental and supportive environment in vocal training sessions.
The Role of Empathy in Coaching: Highlighting how understanding and empathy can enhance the teaching and learning experience in vocal arts.
Navigating Disagreement Constructively: Exploring the concept of 'good disagreement' and its role in fostering healthy, open communication between teachers and students.
Agency and Self-Awareness in Singers: Encouraging singers to own their journey, understand their voice, and express themselves authentically.
Overcoming Vocal Challenges: Addressing how to positively navigate and learn from vocal injuries and other challenges faced by singers.
Mental Health and Singing: Delving into the connection between singing, mental health, and the importance of addressing anxiety and depression in the music industry.
The Evolving Role of Vocal Teachers: Examining how the role of vocal teachers is changing, moving towards a more holistic and individual-focused approach.
The Therapeutic Power of Singing: Acknowledging the therapeutic aspects of singing and its impact on personal growth and self-discovery.
Cultivating a Community of Respectful Listening: Discussing the responsibility of both teachers and students in creating a culture of respectful listening and mutual growth.

It's a packed episode!
#mentalhealth #vocalcoach #singer

Find Lisa Perks at https://Epiphanyvocalstudio.com

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Transcript

The Singer's Safe Haven - Building confidence through compassionate coaching. With Lisa Perks

Anyone that walks in my room to me is a magnificent human being, for first and foremost, and I actually don't care what comes out of their mouth.

I mean, When I say I don't care, like it's I'm there to help them get to where they might want to be. But if I come primarily from that space, where I literally hold them in that level of regard, it's actually how can I say it? There's not much room for shame in that, right? if I, I know if I'm being held in that regard, with my warts and my, all the things that I, I consider to be flawed within myself.

I know that if I, if somebody makes me feel like that, then they're going to get my magic.

this is A Voice, a podcast with Dr Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.

Hello and welcome to This is a Voice, Season 8, Episode 8. The podcast where we get vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr Gillyanne Kayes. And we are once again with the wonderful Lisa Perks and continuing the conversation. Yeah, we've kept her in the studio for the last two weeks. Can you tell?

Thank you for having me back. Let's get straight into the next topic. Fantastic. 

Do you know, I've written down something you said good disagreement. What is good disagreement? Did I say that? You did. Can I just quote myself there? Yeah. Is it? Do you want to go there? What does it mean to you? I love it. I love it. I think I, I don't think I have to agree with everything you say.

And I don't think. Everyone has to agree with what I say. We don't do disagreement very well, there you go, as a rule. Just going back to the injury situation with me, I gave my agency over to people who I thought and, and, you know, they are, they, they know more about the things that I don't, like my voice and how, you know, the structure of, you know, as surgeons, you'd hope they do but as surgeons and caregivers and specialists, I gave agency away. And every time I felt within me that I'd sacrificed a little bit of my own truth. I wouldn't have named it that way at the time, but I was scared to say, no, I disagree.

And so that's a very, that's a horrible thing to happen to somebody. I forfeited my own sense of agency and power because of another expert saying something. As experts in a field, which there are literally thousands of experts in this field across the world, wouldn't it be really nice if we could actually just talk and disagree and not, for someone like me who's very prone to going, oh yes, you know more than me, I'm going to shut up.

Like, That's really what I'm like, deep down. This is. You know, It might look feisty or feisty, whatever but the truth is, I do, I surrender that because I'm scared to go and have discussions with people who I think might know more than me. I will back out of the conversation and we need. Yeah, because I'm scared of disagreeing with someone who's more knowledgeable.

That's the story. Yes, you're putting them above you. Exactly. There is a question that I do like, that I think does sort of tackle that. Go on then. Why? Because it is a question that you can ask experts. If they say well, this, and you go, oh, why is that? And actually, Lisa, in a wider medical context, this is, we have been trained, Doctor Knows Best.

That's right. And the truth is, if we're looking at our own wellness, Patient knows best and patient negotiates with doctor. And that's something that I had to learn, because I developed a heart condition. I can remember one time being in, in hospital and saying, I disagree with the decision you've made.

And I remember seeing the horror on the look of the doctor's face, I said, I think you've made an error of judgment. And I love you for that because you're a strong, powerful woman, Gillyanne. I have to learn to fight. I know you as that person and. This is what I'm saying. We need to have more people who are vulnerable, human, willing to have good, robust conversations around difficult things and to disagree really well in order to advance this, this art form, and it's an art form, let's not forget that. Let's not forget that, that, yeah, there are many colors to this rainbow, right? So how can we There is one way, or the way, or whatever. Apart from the one that I sell, and that is the way. Of course it is. That's fine. The way. If we accept that, that's fine.

How can we um, I don't even want to use the word train but how can we guide singers to take their own responsibility, not in, their own responsibility to say, but it doesn't, it isn't uncomfortable. I do, I do want to sing that somehow so that they can navigate, for instance, if you do have a vocal injury, how they can navigate and stay, unashamed and stay positive as they go through that.

People talk about how elite athletes are trained. Athletes plan for the end of their careers and they actually plan for injury. And how can we help singers in that respect? A slightly circuitous route. Yeah, no I know because we've had discussions around this off camera before and I think It's, it, I don't want to say it begins with teachers, but I will anyway.

I think that at the very least, we can find ways that are congruent for us individually. There isn't one answer to this question. I mean, it's a great question. And I think that... As I'm doing the research and stuff, I will come up with suggestions around this. That is very much the reason I'm doing it.

It's a very it's focused on how can we do better? How can we? Because I don't know if you know this, but one of the biggest studies in musicians and mental health took place in the UK only a few years ago. And... Was Graham Welch? No, it wasn't. It was... Gross and Musgrave. There you go. It was Westminster University.

Study, I think. Can't quite remember. Anyway, the numbers were huge. There were about 2, 000 people that took place in this study. And they were all working musicians, so all professional musicians in the UK. Huge study. Biggest of its kind at that point. And 70 percent there or thereabouts suffered from anxiety or depression.

Now, if shame is a master emotion and if singers and musicians attribute a great deal of themselves, to this particular art form, we know that shame leads to things like anxiety and depression. So if you, if you look at it even very, you know, from a very broad perspective, you could just go, hey, This is a real thing within our culture.

I'm not saying that teachers start it. I'm not, I don't think it's quite as simple as that, but if we can have some responsibility about how we show up as teachers. How we talk to one another as peers, how we regard singers, how we hold those beautiful souls that walk in our room every single day and treat them like, to say just human beings, it doesn't even, for me, like everybody that I work with is a beautiful divine being and with, with absolute the right to sing, dare I say it, so I'm going to just drop that in there, but they have the absolute right to sing. They are, yeah they're a magnificent being. Anyone that walks in my room to me is a magnificent human being, for first and foremost, and I actually don't care what comes out of their mouth.

I mean, When I say I don't care, like it's I'm there to help them get to where they might want to be. But if I come primarily from that space, where I literally hold them in that level of regard, it's actually how can I say it? There's not much room for shame in that, right? if I, I know if I'm being held in that regard, with my warts and my, all the things that I, I consider to be flawed within myself.

I know that if I, if somebody makes me feel like that, then they're going to get my magic. They're going to get that and who knows maybe if we can cultivate more of that in how we teach and how we listen, even to the point, I do this thing in the workshop where even I put the responsibility onto the listener, not the singer, to sound good.

What intentionality am I holding when I listen to someone, am I just looking at them as someone to be fixed? Or something that's wrong, like if that's the only way I can show up as a teacher, I'm missing something profound and beautiful, and I'm actually a great disservice to this. I'm so pleased that you brought this up because I was going to go, I was going to go there as well.

Sorry. I wanted to answer Gillyanne's question about what can we do. And I think there's a, so this is a longer term thing, but you've just said, you've just set out what I wanted to set out. Yeah. Which is, if we, okay the way that people can take charge of what they do is when they believe their own experience.

And that is a journey. When you actually come to believe your own experience and you believe what it is that you're feeling is accurate and what it is that you're feeling is going to help you and is positive for you, despite what other people tell you around you, then that's actually the biggest driver for me of doing what Gillyanne did, which she just said, which is standing up to the doctors in the hospital and going, no, I don't agree with you.

That, that is, understanding and believing what you are experiencing and feeling. The way that we as teachers can help that is to demonstrate that by acknowledging the person who walks into the room before they've even opened their mouth. Yeah. And if that, this is exactly what you were talking about creating the same space, safe space, and being client led.

So you have a safe space and you have a, an understanding and an intelligence and an experience. And when that person walks into the room, you go, I, hello, who are you? Yes. Who are you? Yes! What are you bringing today? What are you bringing today? Yes! And therefore they experience us going, I acknowledge who you are.

100%. And then when they experience that, they can start to experience their own experience of that. It's a, it's, in a way, it's a long term journey because, you need to do that over and over and over again that people then start trusting themselves. But it's also an instantaneous thing.

You walk into a room and you go, I feel safe here. That is an instantaneous thing. That's right. That's right. And safe spaces and brave spaces, holy spaces. Not, and I don't necessarily mean that in a religious way or sacred spaces like when someone shares something of themselves that is so great to them or so important to them, we have to hold that as holy, like it is a, it's a, an immense privilege to be in the presence of that. Because that, an outcome is a thing on top of that, but we must start from that point of view. And that, that starts with us, actually. It really starts with us. And what are we doing before that person even walks in the room, before they say anything, before they share anything?

What is our heart and our intention towards that person? Yep. Is it to fix them? I don't know. Is it to give them a good time? I don't know. But all of the above. And none of it. And none of it. Exactly. There's nothing to be fixed, right? To be honest, it depends. It depends very much on what the client's goals are.

Someone might come in and say, I have this particular issue, that's why, I've come to you, I need to hit that top C in Phantom of the Opera, and you go, okay, let's work on that, you know, explore what's going on with your particular, you know, the way you use your voice contextually. Okay, I think it would help if you did that.

Okay, problem. problem solved. And then maybe that person will go away and not come back for three years because they got the job. Yeah. Yeah. And sometimes, particularly with avocational singers they want They just want to sing. We had a lovely moment yesterday in the pedagogy practicum, didn't we, where we were watching a lesson and suddenly somebody typed watching someone else's lesson and the singer was singing take another, take another little piece of my heart.

Yeah. Yeah. And the comment was. Oh, isn't it wonderful how the singer reveals themself through the song. Suddenly, you saw that person in the song, which is why, in a practical sense, it's really important if we're going to call ourselves teachers, that we actually allow our students to sing.

Yes, the singer needs to sing, it's not enough that we do these sort of routines, we're not just doing exercises in the gym we want to get. out and run the race, and have a go at running the race. And let's circle back a little bit to what you were saying about that, that I guess it's like an inner trust in oneself.

If they're not singing, then they're not, you know, you've got to experience that and to experience the repeated, like repeatedly being, here we go, regarded as whole and complete and marvelous ad nauseum almost like you've got to keep going that you've got to allow that singer to keep feeling good and also to trust in themselves instinctively that even when they're I mean let's let's take the example of the avocational singer who I don't know maybe they're singing a bit flat or something or I don't know like it could be a number of things. Sometimes it's, it's around a conversation that might go something like, Have you ever thought about what you want to sound like?

Have you ever given yourself permission to make a sound like the sound that you want to make? Or are there a million voices in your head telling the you that you weren't good enough or that you can't do that or whatever, there's so many things as you say, like those voices from the past or voices from the present, voices from the media, voices from the competition, whatever it is.

Have you ever just quietened yourself and given yourself full permission to just sing just the way you want to sing? And I'm not saying that's going to fix every vocal issue out there. No, I'm not saying that. But I actually think that I watch people so bound up in their heads and their self consciousness and the over management of this, that and the other, that they just won't express themselves.

And especially with the avocational singer, sometimes that's what they want to do. . In fact, I'm gonna go one further. That's what they need to do. They , that's what their soul and their body is calling them to do. I don't think that needs a great deal of micromanagement on my part. Mm-Hmm. . . I want them to feel like the sounds that they're making are valued.

They're heard. They're, yeah, they're important, it's a form of self connection. Yes. That's the thing, and a lot of people sing for that reason, whether they're conscious of it or not. Yeah. That's really the reason why they sing. It's actually why I sing. I sing in the shower to cheer myself up.

I'm having a bad day. Song pops into my head. I'll sing. I enjoy it. I don't need to perform. That's not where I am in my life. And I haven't been for a while. It's but it is a very precious form of self connection and if we take that away from people in the manner in which we train them or guide them, then we're doing them a disservice.

One hundred and fifty percent. Something that's been, it's quite interesting coming up from what you were saying, which is, it seems to me that the role of the teacher is, is changing and has changed. Yeah. And that um, you know, a hundred years ago, it was drills. It was, it was, you know, it was sequences. I wish it was a hundred years ago, but.

No, I'm, I know. I'm being generous. I'm guilty. Love a drill. But it's really interesting, and there will be circumstances, and I do say this, that the more inexperienced the singer is, the more likely they are to need drills of some kind. Yeah, of course. What I think is so fascinating, what you're talking about, and also what we do, is the light touch.

And actually, that goes across the board. We did a masterclass with eight singers. Last, couple of weeks ago. And that was very interesting because, you've got 20 minutes. Oh, it was an in person. It was in person. So nice. In person masterclass. We haven't done that for years. What a joy. And that was really fun because, you're very much sitting there when the person walks up, which is, who are you?

Yeah. What are you bringing to me? What piece are you doing? What's the context? What do you want to sing it for? Is there a context? Do you just want to sing? It's fine. And then you're listening out for something and you go, I want to do a light touch. I want to do a really clear instruction, sometimes just one, sometimes a group of them, that will give this person something that will help them feel, or recognize, or realize, or improve, or experience, or anything like that.

And we are talking light touch. The discovery. Yeah, the discovery thing. And what often happens is that the skill of a teacher is to hear what might be. Yes, we form a trajectory, and we have to be very careful how we form that trajectory. That's it. Exactly. From a technical point of view, I've always been fascinated by the idea that someone might come to a lesson.

This is a relevant detour. And all detours are relevant. Yeah, I go up to B flat, say B flat five, and I'm hearing that voice, and I know damn well, there's another third up there. Yeah. That they could hit D6. How do I know that? It's extraordinary, isn't it? And then if that's what they want, then maybe I'll go there. But it fascinates me that, and I would guess it's a level of experience of working with voices that allows you to form that trajectory.

But in terms of what you're looking at with the singer as a whole, and how they're delivering the song, it's a Different thing, it's why I'm always really happy to co masterclass with Jeremy because of his level of musicianship because it's a musical experience as well as a vocal experience, and it's also an audience experience, a listener experience.

That's right, yeah. Nobody hears it, what is it? That's right. That's it. Yes. Yeah. And how is it listened to? Yeah. It's the other, what are we bringing as audiences? Yes. What do we do when we turn up to a gig or to a show? What intentions are we setting? I know we can't control 500 people in an audience and I get that but, you can, when you have a masterclass, you can certainly with you, with, you know, as, as you're leading that masterclass, you can completely

suggest to everyone how they might meet that voice, how they might receive that voice. with the, the sort of, you know, the professional people that come through who do have a certain thing that they're doing, or, or a particular struggle, of course, there's, there's definitely room, 100 percent to, to do to work on function and things like that. Of course, we're not, I'm not talking about this as a can I say like a whole approach? No, maybe it is a whole approach. I think the bottom line is that foundationally, this is a whole approach. It's like, understand how to help people get through the passagios.

Understand all that other stuff. But fundamentally, as teachers, let's get this right. Let's actually get this right and then build all the other good stuff on top of it. Because if this is not right, we are sending out, you know, vibes or energies that maybe we don't intentionally want to do, but we do.

Sometimes it is intention. And it comes from the way that we were trained, unfortunately. There's all of the training regimes, and maybe even the way that more traditional education is constructed. I think that contributes to that, the whole idea of conservatoires, doing a degree.

Where you have certain targets that you must meet. It's something, again, that quite a lot of our teachers talk about, which is, I want to honor the individual and they're not in that place at the moment. I've got to get them through that exam in order that they can go on into their next year.

Yes, because I think consciousness has been raised, which is good. They sometimes I sometimes feel there's a mismatch between what's written down, in the academic criteria and what the singer needs. Yeah, just thinking about the process of a lesson and the process of what a teacher does in a lesson.

And the one bit I can't get away from is diagnosis, because, and I'm using the term diagnosis, but in fact what we're doing is analyzing. Yeah. The thing that, you, okay there's a whole lot of, there's a whole stack of thoughts that are about to come out. Okay. Okay. Ready? Go. You. Are you sitting?

Have you got your seatbelt on? I'm good. Okay, great. Yeah. The first thing that happens is the person walks into the room and you will have already created an open space, a space where possibility is possible. That's it. Yeah. And that's a feel. It's an atmosphere. It's an approach. It's the way that you communicate.

It's all sorts of things. that's the teacher's responsibility. And you start with, hello, who are you and what are you bringing? And that's a really nice open question. Somebody then sings and the moment they open their mouth, in fact, sometimes even before, I'm going, what am I experiencing from you?

What am I seeing? What am I hearing? What are you telling me? What are you showing me? What are you delivering to me? And I'm analyzing that. And I like context because If you have a different context, the answers are different. You're going for an audition tomorrow. I have to put my audition context filter on.

Okay, so there are certain things that I'm not saying, because you have to do this tomorrow. Oh, you're recording the song in two days time. Yeah. Yes, yeah. Or you're coming for a longer term series of things and you have a goal at the end of that. Or you don't even have a goal and let's find out what your goal might be.

So you start there and then all the time I'm going, okay, there's technical stuff, there's performance stuff, there's physicality stuff, there's energetic stuff, there's is the song right for you, can we change the song? Can we change the song completely or can we find your version into the song?

Does it need to be in a different key for your voice? Yeah, shall we morph genres so you keep the song but you sing it in a different style? There's all of these things going on and the whole business of regimes because we mentioned those earlier where you see here is the technical exercise and this is what I want you to, That becomes one tool.

It's a very important tool. Yes. Because often it's the way that you can get somebody to change what they do, or to morph what they do, or to improve or refine what they do, but it is only one version of it. I will sometimes say, can we just sing the song twice as fast? I want to find out what goes on. Yes, yeah, I do that too.

Let's go super quick. Yeah, let's do the speedrun because things reveal themselves. So the idea that I want you to do Ah, my first question is why? Yes. I always come back to the why question. Why am I doing what? Why am I asking you to do this? What's the point? Yeah, and therefore you've got a whole, a massive array of tools that you can use that aren't necessarily just technical to find out what's going on and to help that person experience what they themselves do. Yeah. That's it. That's my stack of things. Can I just add to this? Because I actually think we were really early adopters of this thought process. I can remember doing a big, do you remember when we did a big thing in London in 2003?

We've done a lot in London in 2003. Not yet. Give me a context. We had 200 people, it was at the, yes, the Regent's Hall. Yes, I do, yes. And I stood up there and I did exactly you know sang the five note scale, and I said, why are we doing it. We were already thinking like that then which is what's the purpose of it and I love to sing, a one five sequence at all.

You know it's based on various musical patterns that we all grew up with. Classical. Etc etc. Yeah. And, but then it's you know why am I doing this, and that's been very much my journey as a teacher, which is what's the purpose of doing this? How is it going to serve this particular situation with the singer?

I mean, I'm known for being a technician, much more than a performance coach, which Jeremy is, but listening to you talking about the process just now, Jeremy, I actually think that what voice trainers do, singing teachers, coaches, is Actually effing phenomenal. Oh, it's profound. Because we are dealing with things on so many levels, which is why we like to do a brain dump and sift, which is our process for diagnostics.

Yeah. And diagnostics, of course, includes this is working really well in your voice. Yeah, keep it. I love that you're doing this. It's not about, oh, we have something going wrong here. Oh! So anyway, we've just talked too much. What are your thoughts on this? I mean my head's just, I've got word salad going on in here, so I'm I, my, my thoughts are always so blooming noisy that it's like I have to just get in there and go oh, oh, oh, oh, oh, yeah, I think, make some noise girl, pardon?

Make some noise girl, oh mate I, I, I don't know. I, I have so many thoughts at the moment. I'm, I'm with you. I'm completely with you. I, I think what I want to get to here is that all of this belongs, right? I'm not, I think all of it has a place.

And, I think it's our job to, ah, here's controversial, to acknowledge that whether we are therapists or not is irrelevant, singing is therapy, and we are doing that. I think that if we can have. An understanding of that and hold that with extreme respect and regard. I think the outcomes in our studios will be exponentially different.

I think that's a very interesting thought and I'm going to very gently disagree with you, but not really. Absolutely. Singing. Okay, the singing teacher, the vocal coach, the choir leader, singing is the experience of therapy, it's the experiential part of it, it's not the theoretical part of it, it's not the psychological part of it.

The point about getting singers to sing in the studio or in the room is that they do. That's right. The, there's a, for me there's a line which is I can't go into the psychotherapy because I'm not trained. So I'm not going to unpack the problems behind, but I am going to get the singer to express those problems in singing.

And that to me is the do part of it. It's the experience. That's right, you are doing therapy. You are actually doing it because it's experiential. And people sometimes don't have the language or the the thought to actually unpack all of that stuff, but it's in doing that we gain, I don't know it's like a knowing or an understanding a connectedness to oneself that perhaps couldn't be done in a psychology in, in a room with your psychologist or with your counselor. 100%.

So I do agree 100%. This is like a body based therapy, and I don't think I'm alone with that thought. I was going to try and find something in my rolodex here of studies that just doesn't want to come out, but I'm pretty sure if anyone wanted to research it, I'm pretty sure that there's enough evidence out there to say that this singing is some form of a body based therapy and through that people learn about themselves.

I know that I learn about myself when I sing, especially now, I feel like the last five years I have grown and I'm continuing this, what you're seeing today I hasten to say is not what you're going to see in 10 years. So I, and neither should it be to be honest, but I feel like there's this unraveling that's been taking place slowly and steadily over the last five years. And it has been learning about myself through my voice. Yeah. And if anyone said to me, how do you quantify that? How do you explain that? What have you learned? I would have to say, I don't actually know that I can articulate that quite yet, but if I can, and when I do, I'm happy to share it.

 I, I know that shame, going back to shame, has played a very big role in my life in on so many levels. And the voice is a rather large part of how I saw myself and how I still see myself as a singer. So there's definite shame around what happened to me with my injury and so forth.

But when I look at myself as a person, how I show up in the world, I understand that I have a proneness towards self consciousness. And I know that has caused quite a lot of discomfort and sadness for me. And so as I sing now, even though my voice isn't what it could have been, should have been, would have, could have, should have, blah, whatever.

I know that with every bold step that I take with my voice. And those bold steps are done in private as well. See, bold steps are not necessarily about standing on a stage. Bold steps take place in your room because I am my hardest critic. I am the harshest voice to myself. And so when I choose to love myself, And make the sounds that, that feel almost impossible or difficult because of the injury and because of those things.

That is, that's me being very brave with myself and through that bravery, I'm learning things that I can't quite articulate yet. But one day I'm looking forward to sharing that with people, because I hope, I sincerely hope that others go through that too, especially those that are aging or have injury.

I love that. I think it feels like a really good landing point, do you great place to finish. Where can we find you? Where can people find out about you? Do you have a website? You can come see me at epiphanyvocalstudio.Com. You can also find me on Facebook. I hang a bit low, cause I'm a bit shamed.

I People say, why are you not on social media all the time, Lisa? Because I'm extremely self conscious. I am. And I'm willing to go public and say that I wish I could. because it doesn't work for you. It doesn't work. It doesn't work for you. You will notice I do not post on Facebook except for the business.

You will notice I don't post on Facebook at all because I dislike Facebook. Sorry all you lovely people on Facebook. It doesn't work for me. I love you but life is too short actually. I love the name of your studio Epiphany. And it happens every day. Every single day. I found that name or that name found me and it, when I said it, I thought, Oh no, no one's going to be able to spell it.

Everyone's going to go, Oh, and I said, Oh, shush. It doesn't matter. It it, it really does sum up what's happened to me and what I see happening with the people that I work with. We will have a link to Epiphany Vocal Studio in the show notes, so people can click it, they don't even need to spell it.

That's right. It has been a complete joy talking to you. Oh, I love you too. We share so many things that we agree with and a few that we disagree with and that's fine too. It's a very special connection and I'm so grateful that... We made that connection back in 2019 and all the stuff that happened 2018 to 2019.

That's right. And the moment of first meeting you physically, it was like bonding. Yeah, I tend to go there straight away, don't I? That's the thing, like I'm a vulnerable person. Let's see if this is going to work or not. And I'm very grateful for that vulnerability. It's a very special quality. So we're going to recommend your studio to people and also that they can find out about you and talk with you, get to know you. Thank you so much for being on the podcast and we'll see you soon. Bye!

This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.