From Panic to Purpose: Real stories of growth from vocal coaches, choral leaders & singing teachers

Ever wondered how professional vocal coaches, singing teachers, and choir leaders overcome the challenges of their craft? 

In Season 9, Episode 12 of the 'This is a Voice' podcast, Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher take you inside the transformative experiences of six Registered Teachers from different backgrounds, including Amy Housley (actor and singing teacher), Tim Uffindell (gospel singer & choir leader), and Laura Thomas (SLT and singer), Amy Jenkins ( CCM singer/teacher and NLP practitioner), Naomi Lee Schulke (MT singer/teacher and trans voice trainer) and Hannah Grandy (opera singer and MT coach)

Listen as these professionals share raw and inspiring stories about overcoming self-doubt, rediscovering their passion for teaching, and the power of community support. 

Hear how the unique peer support and buddy system within our Accreditation Programme empowers teachers to thrive, experiment with new techniques, and grow both personally and professionally.

Discover why collaboration, creativity, and context are crucial in modern vocal pedagogy. 

If you're looking to deepen your teaching skills, connect with peers, or reignite your passion for voice work, this episode is for you.
Are you ready to join a community that lifts you up and transforms your teaching? 

🔗 Book a discovery call and join a community where you belong: https://www.cognitoforms.com/VocalProcess1/TheAccreditationProgramme 


00:00 Amy J on bit of a panic
02:16 Putting two video streams together
03:34 Amy H on new techniques with the choir
04:41 Hannah on discovering more about my voice
06:36 Introducing peer support
07:29 Tim on no sense of competition
09:15 Laura on the wonderful buddy system
13:11 Naomi on watching each other’s lessons
14:45 Amy J on breaking down vocal exercises
17:24 Hannah on a powerful change in identity
19:38 Amy H on the emotion of finding your level
22:24 Confidence, certainty, context, collaboration, creativity

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Transcript

So when it came to doing the Accreditation, obviously I was nervous, I was very excited and it become a Very apparent to me early on in the course that, oh my gosh, like I had a flashback feelings from university because I haven't been in the setting, and I think we had to read something, and I was like, Oh my god, I don't understand what this is and I got myself into a bit of a panic and then all those old thoughts of I'm too stupid, I don't belong here started to come in again and I was like, oh my god, I can't say anything, I better not and then I thought, hold on, I'm a grown woman, reach out, just tell them what's going on.

So I sent you an email about it and oh my god, just the response that I had from you guys was just, That was healing in itself. Just being able to reach out and think, oh my god, are they gonna tell me off? Am I gonna be stupid? All that schoolgirl type of vibes going on. That was not the case at all.

And I can't thank you guys enough for that because that was just a moment of, ah, just so much love there and caring and you guys reached back out and was like, oh, It's not a problem at all. Can we send it to you in this form? How do you learn? What can we do to help that centre?

What can we do to help? I was like, oh, wow I don't, I'm not sure. Okay, so how do I learn? And then that changed a lot for me because that was the realisation. I don't learn like some other people do. So how do I learn? And throughout the whole course, you both have been so caring and so supportive. and created that safe environment for me to be able to go, I don't understand that, can you say it?

And be like, okay, let's do it a different way. Let's do it this way. Does that help? And that's just such a beautiful thing. So if there's anybody out there worrying about, they might be neurodivergent, am I going to get on this course? Oh yes, you are. Absolutely. 

This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.

 Hello and welcome to This is Voice, Season 9, Episode 12. The podcast where we get vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And you've just heard Amy Jenkins talking about panicking when she first joined the Accreditation program. We decided that we were going to put two different video streams together.

So, we've got the This is a Voice video stream and we've also got a whole video stream on our Registered Teachers and we've been interviewing them for the past year or so. Yeah, and I want to say that our reason for doing this, our why, if you like, is we felt it was time to get vocal about Vocal pedagogy, and how we train teachers within this modern world context, and what teachers need.

 So you're going to be hearing excerpts from interviews from six of our Registered Teachers.

That's Amy Jenkins, Amy Housley, Hannah Grandy, Tim Uffindell, Laura Thomas, and Naomi Lee Schulke. So you've just heard Amy Jenkins, let's go to Amy Housley, and Amy's going to be talking about using the techniques that she's learned the same week. And then we're going to go on to Hannah about finding out new things about her voice while she was on the Programme, and the differences between opera and contemporary musical theatre, and the aha moments that she was having.

As the choir developed, I feel like my development and the choir's development of kind of done this, which has been really nice to see actually. And also you were taking some of the stuff that we were doing in the classes and then basically working it straight onto the choir, which is fun.

 We'd have a session on a Sunday, um, either a pedagogy session or, or a live training and. literally the Tuesday after I go, okay, I'm going to try this. And like, especially with how diverse our cohort was. So we had Tim and Charlotte and Anne who all work with groups in different ways.

So I felt like I had lots of different things I could try and I would be very open with the choir and go, I've just learned this on Sunday. you're going to be my guinea pigs and we're going to try it because, that's the best way for me to learn is to implement that. And then I could get, and they're very brutal, they're Scouse and Irish.

So if they didn't like it, I would find out immediately. But if they did like it, they'd also be very honest about that. So yeah, that was kind of like a practical way of doing my Accreditation homework, which was great. It was great fun. It's a brilliant way of doing it because you embed so quickly when you're trying stuff out.

So I think it was a couple of trainings ago, we had short sections of music and then we were singing them in different genres. And I tried out, this is what I love trying stuff out, and I've always got my hand up, and it was, I think something about Jamie the last five years. Yes. so I was taking my M1 up quite high, and it was super helpful, the feedback I got from that.

I think, something clicked, I went, Hannah, you have to watch this is, because you're bringing your opera, everything that is so instilled in you how to sing classical music into this moment when you're trying to sing a phrase in Musical Theatre in M1 and it was just a few, do this, and then I could do it.

So that you didn't go into vocal overload which is one of the things that can happen. Yeah, the opportunity to try that out with you in a room with everybody else there, yeah, the experience embedded it. Yes, and I think that's important because there are some teachers for whom if they don't experience it themselves that you know the feel and the sound in fact I'd say pretty much for everyone you've got to have a good idea of that even if you know I'm never going to be a commercial music singer but nevertheless I've still got to be able to pick up one or two things and think okay, I'm mapping what I think this singer is doing. If I don't know how that works in my voice, how am I going to be able to talk to someone about how it works in their voice? Otherwise it's do it like the recording and you're hoping, or it's do it like me. We've got to be able to do better than that.

And it's something we feel very strongly about on the course, isn't it

Yes, so one of the things that comes up from many of the people that we're talking to on the Accreditation Programme is the peer support aspect. This is a unique aspect of our program, the buddying system. We'd really like to share with you why this So important. We think about the master apprentice model damaging the student or having the potential to damage the student, but in fact it's also damaging to the teacher and even to choir leaders who work with communities.

The most important thing is that we can learn to collaborate with and learn with our colleagues and support each other. So here's Tim Uffindell, who's a choir trainer, on working with other teachers.

Laura Thomas, who's a speech and language therapist and singing teacher, on worrying about saying the wrong thing in a group of teachers. And Naomi Lee Schulke, who's a singer and singing teacher, on sitting in on each other's lessons.

How's it been for you working alongside other teachers? You're not the only choir trainer in the group. What's it been like, on that journey? It's been really lovely. Actually, the word I'm going to put is lovely. When we first start out, obviously, when you, we're with a cohort, a small cohort, and there's the risk of it being a competition and the risk of ego creeping in and the risk of I'm better than you and you're better than me, but it's, and it's, I haven't felt that at all in this cohort, which has been amazing.

Everyone recognizes their own strength and acknowledges and encourages each other's strength. And so it's been really lovely when I've been paired with another choir director. We've been sharing ideas and sharing what do you do in this situation and how with that situation, how would you handle that?

Or have you tried this as a warm up? And I'm thinking this is brilliant. I'm taking notes all over the shop. And then when I'm paired with someone who isn't a choir leader and has no interest in being a choir leader, we can still really bounce off one another and share other parts of our work to encourage and equip each other in that way and also see how other people do it, other professionals do it without this sense of you're better than me or you're a threat. And I think that's part of the benefit of being online and we have an international cohort, which is great. I don't think I'm going to be stealing many of my German colleagues students but also even though some of us are actually quite geographically close.

We're thinking how can we work together? We're already thinking of how can we put workshops on that benefit each other? And can you come in and do xyz? I've actually done a piece of work with one of my cohort members already, so what's, you saw what I do with Drama Spectrum yes, fantastic, brilliant, really good fun.

So that was a really excellent network and so we're just supporting one another. It's great.

I think it's quite nerve wracking at first, because like any group that you join, everyone's trying to find their place. You want to, you want to impress people, you want to show that this is what I do, or this is what I do, and it can take a little while to settle but then having the opportunity to speak to your buddies away from the group can just make you realise that everybody's in the same boat, everybody feels the same quite quickly.

And soon you just get into a kind of, a way of feeling comfortable with sharing knowledge. And that's just been so invaluable from, because you've had so many different types of singing teachers on, on, on this. It's really diverse, this community. Yeah, it's just, it's fantastic. It's so interesting hearing about how people use all of the, all the similar things, but in a different context and from a different perspective.

So yeah, so daunting at first but it very quickly became um, all right, this is how, this is how we work. This is normal. Yeah, it's good for us because we watch that and, people, particularly when we do the synchronous commenting during a training. Obviously at the beginning, people are.

Am I going to say the right thing? What if I get this wrong? And then, of course, what we understand is that if you get it wrong, that's an opportunity for understanding and growth. And just watching the whole cohort grow in confidence, to the point where they're able to teach each other in front of each other.

And also to do, and remember the first pedagogy practicum where we basically let you all loose so that you watched each other's lessons and instead of us guiding it, you guided it. And that was fantastic. There's something that you've mentioned which I think if people haven't come across this, which is the buddy system that we do.

Yeah. And I think the buddy system is so invaluable. So at the beginning of the first month, we pair you up either in groups of two or groups of three, and you stick with that buddy for, or buddies, for three months. And these are the people that you can talk to. They're on the course with you.

They're at the same level with you on our course, even though they come from very different backgrounds or they're all the different ages or the different levels, whatever. And so you get the buddies to talk to. I think we're quite good at buddying people up and actually matching people. So how was the buddy thing?

Yeah, it was great. Like I, yeah, I don't have anything bad or negative to say, but it's just been, it's been wonderful, really. It's been wonderful getting to know such a lovely group of people. And yeah, I think you've matched us beautifully. Just hearing about, and also Just from different parts of the country.

I made me realize how London centric I am. It's terrible. And just hearing about what's going on in other parts of the country and being able to do that on this, because you wouldn't be able to do that in person, be very difficult to anyway. So yeah that's been great. Um, we've all got different schedules and that's always a little bit tricky to and I did worry about that at the start, how will this fit in to everybody's different schedules, but it's been absolutely fine. We've always found a way to do it. Because you were working full time with the NHS when, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Only up until a month ago. So yeah, it's, but it's always worked with, evenings and and it's, it can seem a bit daunting at first, like how will I commit to this and fit it in, but it does, you find a way.

Yeah, I think that's important you find a way because you want to do it, and also the way we designed the Programme is was so that it could be possible for someone who is working full time to still do it, and I think we've been. I'm actually quite proud of how we've arranged that. 

We've been sitting in on each other's lessons, actually. That happens in about the first six weeks of cohort 23. It was just incredible. I think it's a really important thing when you know that other teachers in the field have got your back. Oh my goodness, it really is. It's very powerful. Because it can be very isolating.

And if you teach groups, I think in particular there is a feeling that certainly I have the feeling that I need to be all knowing and often that I can't get anything wrong. I make it really clear to my students. This is my opinion. This is my understanding. What do you think?

And, hopefully that way open the collaboration up to a bit more of a kind of dual learning experience, but there is an expectation, particularly if you work in an institution that you are all knowing that you are the expert in your field. And certainly in, performing arts is, quite often only one or two people who have an expertise in any specific area that you should be able to answer every single question and all those answers should be without fault, which as humans is, it's just, I've never.

Insane. Yeah. Yeah. But it's so important because people do think that. And the first thing I would say is you don't have to answer the question immediately. You can always say I'll check. There's a book I read. I'll go and read it and get back to you. There's somebody I can go to, in this case, there's somebody I can go to who has more experience in this area. I'll go and check with her

We're going to a longer discussion with Amy Jenkins on breaking vocal exercises down and the whole thing about what makes a good teacher. And then we're going to listen to Hannah Grandy on how, well, the way that she saw herself after the Accreditation Programme had changed, and this is a theme that comes up a lot. Being creative with your vocal exercises, for want of a better word. One size doesn't fit all, and if you are going to be client led, you need to have that creativity. And I think with regard to what Hannah had to say, something that we feel is really important, and if you're going to be a good teacher, you need to know who you are, what your strengths are, what your values are. And over and over again, people talk about as they go through the 12 month process, they really dig into who they are and they just come out shining.

We never wanted it to be like a, you know, a master's Programme or anything like that. It's much more vocational in that sense. It's experiential, hands on. Absolutely. There's something I think that's really good for us is, if you know your material well enough, if you know, what works well enough, you can explain it in 18 different ways.

It doesn't matter. I think the difficulty when you've got one way of teaching and you've got one way of passing information on and somebody challenges that and you actually have, do not have the skill to teach. You don't have the skill to break it down. You don't have the skill to, and this is one of the things that we also teach on the Programme, is how do you break something down? Absolutely, 

If you can break something down into sort of instructions or parts, then you can build it back together in a different way. You can explain it in a different way. You can demonstrate it in a different way. You can do all sorts of things with that information or that technique, and it's not Here is the only way it works, and if you're not doing it, you must be stupid.

It's absolutely not that. It's actually, to me, that demonstrates that person is not a teacher. Yes, I agree. I agree. That's one of the reasons I loved your course, was all the different ways. Like, That's what makes a good teacher. Like you said, you just have in one way, and then if the other person doesn't get it blaming the other person for not getting it.

It's how can I help them to discover or understand? And that you both are so good at that so good. And like you said, there's so many different ways and that's what makes a good teacher, 100%. Absolutely. It's also, it's working with the person in the room. Yeah, again, being client led, whether it's a group or an individual.

The big change, the big shift has been identity. That's massive for me. I think that's the headline. so I'm a singer who, who does a little bit of teaching but keeps it very quiet and certainly doesn't tell any of her colleagues at work because they might think, what does she know about singing?

Now, I feel I am these two things. I am both. I'm proud to be both. I do both well. And I'm now applying for jobs in institutes in Germany, jobs that I wouldn't even have looked at 12 months ago. And it's so interesting how the two worlds have mixed beautifully. How what I've learned the last 12 months has improved my experiences at work, because I'm singing better than I have done in a long time because I teach myself as well. Can I hear that again please Hannah? Yes certainly. Talking to myself but that's an absolute reality. I feel as good as ever about the way I'm singing. And then, of course, the other way around.How my experience e in theatre, then I can bring that into the singing lessons as well.

Absolutely. Identity has been, it's great, because I can be confident. And it's not just those two things. It's also Hannah as a fully formed human being. I also go out into the world. with a more confident step. I haven't got anything to, I don't have to hide behind anything. I can be really proud of what I'm doing in both worlds and that's the tools you have given me to be a singing teacher but also to be Hannah as an individual.

These tools have been honestly, massive shifts. Life changing, because I wouldn't be applying for those jobs. That could change our whole situation here. if I hadn't got the confidence to do it. 

So we're going to finish with a little conversation with Amy Housley on finding your level and how difficult it is to know what level you're at if you don't have other people to compare with.

And that has a whole set of problems of its own anyway. It's more than level. Again, it's about who you are, what your strengths are, and what it is that you have to offer, I think this is super important for us as we're, you know, moving forward in our professional lives. Nobody can know everything.

We don't know everything. I don't feel caught up. The joy of a Programme like this is that if you're not caught up, someone else in the Registered Teacher group is and they will be happy to share with you.

 And, uh, gonna try not to get, like, emotional when I say this, but like, um, it really did help me to, like, love what I do again. Um, and love my voice. Cause I think I spent so long thinking I didn't have any skills. Um, or other people's skills were better than mine or whatever. Um, but actually like getting to know everyone on the course and getting to know what they all do and what they are all good at made me realize that I have a unique skill that I'm good at.

And there's no competition. I don't feel like I'm in competition with Tim or Charlotte or Laura or Lindsey. Everyone is. a specialist in their area. Like if I need any advice on jazz improvisation, I go straight to Molly. And I know that, I don't feel like I have to then be amazing at jazz improvisation. I just have a colleague who is really good at that.

And I know if anyone on the cohort needs any acting through song tips, they'll go to me or Lindsey. And, um, it's really nice to finally feel like, and I said this to Gillyanne in the first initial chat I had with her. Being self employed is incredibly lonely. You don't have a company. My boyfriend has Christmas parties and like social events and an office full of people he can just walk over and speak to.

Whereas for years I never had that and I think that really impacted my mental health was I suddenly, I already felt lonely and then we were locked in our houses. Um, So now I feel like I have a company of colleagues in this cohort and we lift each other up and we boost each other and we rely on each other for, um, you know, any questions I need answering, I go to them.

So that's, I feel like, Yes, I've learned how to be a better singing teacher, but you guys have also provided me with friends and colleagues that I'm, that I hopefully will have for years and years and years. Sorry, that was such a long emotional tangent, but we got there in the end. It's, it's lovely, actually.

I'm really happy that you shared it with us. 

So we hope you've enjoyed this trip through the journeys of some of our Registered Teachers. And if you've been listening to this and you recognise yourself in some of these topics, I'm just going to talk about confidence and certainty, the sense of connection with other teachers. And context, you know, context is a big thing for me.

And collaboration between peers. It's all C's. It is absolutely all the C's and creativity as well. You know, we need creativity in our teaching world. Book yourself a short chat with me, a discovery call. I would love to talk more with you about this Programme because we are enrolling right now for a Programme that starts formally in January 2025 and some people are starting their journey right now.

So we'll put the link in the show notes and we'll see you soon.

This is a voice, a podcast with Dr Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher.