Training performers for the real musical theatre world - with Kevin Michael Cripps

In this powerhouse episode, Kevin Michael Cripps, Head of Singing at Guildford School of Acting, joins Jeremy and Gillyanne for a deep dive into the realities of training musical theatre performers in the 21st century.
Kevin shares what it’s really like to work inside one of the UK’s leading drama schools—and how teaching voice has shifted to reflect individuality, neurodiversity, and longevity.

🎭 Individuality vs Industry Expectations
→ How GSA nurtures authentic vocal identities in a results-driven world
→ Why "cookie cutter" training harms the industry—and the performer

🎓 Bridging Education & Professional Life
→ What students think the industry expects vs what it really needs
→ The critical difference between drama school feedback and audition feedback
→ Helping students navigate casting mismatches and unrealistic vocal ideals

🧠 Pedagogy & Psychological Safety
→ How Kevin builds a "multi-lexical" teaching staff for diverse learners
→ Replacing the toxic “give 110%” mindset with sustainable performance
→ Empowering students to feel they are enough in their own structures

🎤 Practical Voice Training Strategies
→ Why “it doesn’t feel hard” doesn’t mean “it’s not working”
→ Peer-led learning through small group singing sessions
→ Tackling buzzwords like “speechy” and “purple” in professional settings

💼 Career Longevity & Self-Marketing
→ Teaching students to own their instrument as a business asset
→ The new digital skills actors must develop (reels, social, filming)
→ Why some grads succeed in their 30s—not their 20s—and that’s OK

This episode is essential listening for:
✔️ Singing teachers & vocal coaches in drama or music theatre
✔️ Performers navigating conservatoire life or early careers
✔️ Choral directors and educators seeking inclusive, forward-thinking pedagogy
✔️ Anyone frustrated by industry myths around “belting,” casting types, and “sounding right”

🎧 Listen, learn, laugh—and maybe rethink your entire teaching approach.

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Transcript

Hello and welcome to, this is Voice Season 11, episode eight, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes, and we have to tell you that we've been making mistakes galore in this introduction. So welcome, Kevin Michael Cripps, tell us who you are.

Oh, good morning everyone. Hello. Hello. I am Kevin Michael Cripps. Kevin Michael, or KMC sometimes. Uh, job is head of singing at Guilford School of Acting, and I'm here to talk about all kinds of information about uh, it is to teach in drama schools. My, my background is uh, Jeremy, it's a little bit similar to yours.

It is, yeah.

start, started as a musician, then discovered that maybe my original passion for wanting to be a concert pianist was foolish

Yeah, 100%

to do the other,

with you on that.

yeah. And then chose to do the other foolish thing of becoming an actor. Uh, then, you know, I had the skills as a musician and the skills as an actor, I sort of myself working as a music director as well, and.

I am sure your listeners can tell that my accent is a bit different than your accent. Um, professional life in terms of being a performer, in terms of being a music director, and actually my earlier teaching as well, is from Canada. I'm originally from Vancouver, which is out in the West Coast.

Beautiful, beautiful part of the country. So, well, you for having me today. What a, pleasure. I, like we are uh, tea and, gonna have a nice little nerdy chat about all the things that we love.

Absolutely. Very much and what we appreciate is that you've taken time to come in today, because as we're doing a little mini series about the professional performer nurturing the professional performer specifically in the musical theater environment. And it's gonna be wonderful to talk with you about how you do that and how you grow that individual within the educational space.

Because I should say for our listeners who may be aren't familiar with Guilford School of Acting, AKA GSA, it is one of our premierer training institutions in the UK for actors and musical theater performers. If I've left anybody out you have actor musicians as well, I think.

Yeah. 

as well. That's right. Yeah, absolutely. No, it's a it's, wonderful institution and I, um, say I'm extremely privileged to hold the position that I have, and I think when I say PR privileged, I only do I get to work with some pretty wonderful colleagues that bring so much uh, experience to the work, but also that I get to work with incredible students that, have so much potential for their future careers and their future lives, and.

Do, you know, talking about what it is to teach in the drama conservatoire environment, and I, think in talking about privilege, I think it's important that, you know, acknowledge the fact that on the first day of classes, it's not us going, wow, these students are so lucky to work with us, that it's us going, oh my goodness, how lucky are we, that they're trusting 

Mm-hmm. 

their hopes, their dreams, their challenges, more importantly the journey that they're about to go on.

And I, playing a tiny, little role in that. I think that's a, gift in my life. And, And uh, I'm incredibly grateful for 

I want to jump in straight away with a, what could be a tricky question because I'm like that the, I was thinking in institutions you have a very careful balance between individuality and group necessity. Oh, let's go there. Right away. Right away.

Oh, I love this. We're peeling the bandage right off. I love that. And actually what, really enjoyed about your, previous podcast of this series is there's been lots of conversation hasn't there, about individuality and what that looks like and what that means uh, the industry, but certainly here in this environment too as, teachers and learners.

And um, should just to be clear to say that I'm in a position where I can speak about the GSA experience and only the GSA experience at this point, not the experience of other schools, although I may find myself being a bit of a hypocrite and making sweeping statements and all that kind of stuff.

But think we pride ourselves at Guilford School of Acting fact that we want to encourage our students to be individual. And, when we're looking at what that means to be individual, we want the students to be their own selves. We want them to be true to themselves because. We recognize that education is not a one size fits all uh, but certainly our industry is not uh, a cookie cutter industry.

As in uh, good would it be if I turned out 25 students every year that look the same, move, the same sound, the same? That's not gonna be beneficial for them and it's not gonna be beneficial for this thing that we call the industry. The challenge though, is working with these students where we are working in a way that encourages them to um, embrace their individuality, but also I.

To keep a mind on what are the trends? What does the industry ask of us? What do we, th um, a big one. What do we think the industry

is us, and how do we connect with them to find out that we are either right or wrong? Do you know? And uh, there's quite a few obstacles which uh, think we'll probably get into today with this, within this conversation, because I think this is sort of and potatoes of what it is that we do as, 

Yeah.

Um, definitely I think um, be doing a massive disservice to our students if we were saying Good march to the beat of one drum and only one drum. Uh, it's not really gonna do them any good as they progress into the

There's a very interesting thing about the musical theater industry in general, and I am also by the way, assuming that you can also train them outside of the musical theater specific industry. So there are many more opportunities. The idea of transferable skills, and building their own businesses, et cetera.

Yeah.

yeah. Do you know, sorry to interrupt you, but this transferable skills is a, massive thing. I think we've moved to a, gosh, we live in a wonderful time, don't we? Where we have so much information and recognize that there's so much opportunity that studying at a musical theater program now isn't just about singing and acting and dancing.

It's the recognition that you can also go and work in film and television and you can do commercial work and you can do voiceover work for audio books and video games and heck knows what else. That there is so much more to what it is that these students are learning to do than just show 

Yes. Mm-hmm.

you I that's uh, incredibly important to that whole experience, but also to their future careers.

So, I'm going to prod you about what does individuality mean to you.

Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yes. So here we are, team friends, we're, we are voice people. You know, I there's been a lot of conversation within the voice world in particular the last few years. But again, certainly we've heard it within your previous podcast um, sessions where talking a lot about the, individual as in who they are when we're looking at everything from their mental health to how they learn to any sort of aspect of EDI, of course.

actually in this, we're also looking at what structures we're dealing with, and I'm talking about Vocal structures. We're, dealing with not only the mental mind, but we're working with physical structures, the genetic structures. And the conversation that comes out of this is should we be training students to go into an industry where we think they are needed to do something, or needed to sound a certain way?

Or should we actually be working with students to go, let's work with your individual structure and look at what your structure is capable of doing and what your relationship is with that structure and what you, yourself are capable of doing. And I think personally, I think that's the way forward.

And I think that's the start of it. I think there's more to it than that, but in, in, terms of say encouraging the students or giving the students agency in the use of their instrument, we need to make sure that we are equipping them with the tools to work in a way that is appropriate for themselves before working for other expectations.

they need that sense of a growth mindset for themselves, which you need to encourage because this challenge that we have over the individuality. Not only Vocal, but personality neuro processing gender expression and ethnicity and all of those aspects are super important.

So not only that as an institution, but the performer expectations themselves. And I'm just wondering how much you come across this as an obstacle. It's oh, I want to go into that industry. I see myself as this and actually what's coming out. Let's talk about something like voice categorization, voice type and suddenly they're discovering that their individual voice isn't that tenor who can sing, waving through a window with ease, as an example.

And then they have to learn to embrace this. This self that they have and all of their strengths, how do you manage that Within the training framework?

yeah, You have to say, you said, how often do you come across this? I would say that is a bulk of our work, isn't it? You know, young people they, come with expectations of what they think the industry is themselves. Not just what we think the industry is, but what they think the industry is.

And some of those expectations come from, you media that they see, as well as uh, other teaching and learning experiences that they've had, but also the stuff that they listen to. You Again, previous conversations about what do we hear on a cast album versus what is the reality of what's actually happening, you know, of thing.

And often the students come in to the work with the thought of. Um, love this song. I want to perform this song. I love this character. I want to perform this character the same way that Jeremy Jordan performed this character or sang this character. But they often look at it as that's how it has to be.

That's what must be. And that's, as you I know, that's not the truth. And again, that's not working with their structures. And so, start working with the students in a way that allows them to recognize that there are other choices to be made. But the challenge is getting them to believe that 

Yep.

Uh, oftentimes what we see is uh, with very good singers that do have lots of experience, that they come to material like that and they think. Yes, Ben Platt sang, waving through a window just like that. I'm gonna sing it just like that. Uh, uh, maybe they're pressurizing or perhaps maybe it's becoming muscular.

And so we start to work in a way to reduce those, those challenges. And oftentimes their response will be well, it's not big enough. It's not strong enough, therefore equals not good enough. 

Mm-hmm. 

And you think, okay, but what are you basing on that on? And I think oftentimes it's what they perceive as in what they've heard, what they perceive of what they hear in themselves, but also biofeedback, you know, idea of what is it that I physically feel when I am singing?

I felt my body vibrate when I hit that really great note. So therefore it must be good. Or I felt. A higher workload when I hit that note, which made me feel solid and secure. So that must be good. And then when you start removing some of that workload and inviting their own experience, and they often go well, it's not enough.

I'm, I'm worried. It sounds too weak. And uh, you have to spend about a bunch of time going, let's dig this apart. Let's pull this apart and let's examine that. Do you know what's been really beneficial? Uh, blathering on a little bit, but what's been beneficial and something I really enjoy about my position is that we have our one-to-one singing.

We have anatomy in, in the beginning of, their training. We have all kinds of wonderful things. But my favorite course to teach, or favorite lesson to teach is what we call small group singing. And this is, you know, four students in a one hour session. And the brief is nothing more than bring me the things that you're working on.

Bring me your challenges, bring me the things that you'd like, another opinion on, another voice, so to speak on. And in those sessions their peers are there. The other three students are there listening. And the feedback that those students are able to give to the, the student that's doing the work, the student that's presenting is completely invaluable in that it, they confirm when I say, do you know, I think that's probably enough. I don't think you have to worry about that being not big enough, not good enough. Look at the response from, these guys, you know? uh, great, it's a great resource. It's a great tool. But I, I the big, challenge is, is um, the students to connect with their own voice in a way where they learn to trust that the sensations that they feel are enough.

That it's not about trying to create someone else's work. It's yours and it's gonna feel the way it feels for you, if that

so good. It's so good. Because what you're talking about is integrating a Whole load of things. 

absolutely. 

And also, we've come across this a lot. The idea that it doesn't feel like I, it doesn't feel difficult, and therefore I must not be working hard enough. Oh, the, I must be giving 150% otherwise I'm not worth it.

And that. That ethos is in the industry, it's in it particularly in the dance dance training. Yeah. And all of that. And, even quite seasoned professional performers that I work with will talk about this. So I'm not giving, everything to that note and I'm saying, please don't give me everything to that note.

Please don't. Eight shows a week, please don't.

Yeah. It's not, it's not efficient, is it? Do you know I've, I've of two, two things, two things to say about that. One it, it really sort of bugs me a little bit when I hear people talk about, oh, alright, everyone give your best 110% tonight, or, you of thing. And I think, yeah, but do you know what, that's impossible.

You only have ever have a hundred percent of something, you we've got. And if you're always working at a hundred percent you are working in an inefficient way. You're always pushing yourself to the maximum and then you have nowhere to go to if you do need to give a little bit more, you know. thing that I think about that is, is a whole. Massive narrative around what it is to be an actor. That whether we learn this when we're young or whether we feel it perpetuated through our professional careers, and that is, it's a competitive industry. You've been hired above all else of, above all other people.

So you, don't let us down. You know, thing that we're, we're fighting to get past the whole show must go on and all that kind of stuff that I think people often feel, oh no, actually my favorite one is um, people have paid for these tickets. We have to

give them That one gets me too.

We have to get past this idea of, uh, all of those things of, of always pushing ourselves to try to meet those demands. Because they're impossible, aren't they? It's,

Impossible. Yes. Do you know what, Kevin, you've said something that I think is really important. I've seen quite a lot of my colleagues talk about this, musicians and singers. It's not a competitive sport. No. I mean, You may enter a competition and Yes. When you are going for an audition, in a sense, that it is a judged performance for want, want of a better word.

We do a whole webinar on judged performances. Yeah. 

Yeah, absolutely.

performance and acting and dance performance, they are not competitive sports. It's a completely different mindset, and it implies that it's you and you alone that is going to be, achieving that. And of course acting isn't about that anyway.

Is

No, not at all. You uh, know the uh, oftentimes I think uh, students, and again, this is a general sweeping sort of comment, feel that yes, I have to be industry ready by the time I leave school. Okay? We need to have them we, to have them to a skill level that can get them into the industry.

The biggest part of their education happens after they finish school, after they've graduated from their three-year, four year program, and they're. They're doing it, they're doing the work. They're getting out there and they're meeting people and they're finding their way. And, And that's when they, you know, to, to learn things about themselves.

And I think that's when they start to go, oh, yes. Do you remember that time, Kevin, that you said when I was in third year, that you said, do you know when you go out into the world and if you don't get cast, if you've done your own work and you feel confident that you've done your own work, if you didn't get cast, it's simply because you just were too tall or too short.

They wanted someone with brown hair instead of black hair. You And uh, more about, it's just a job. It's just a job. It's not the competition, as you say that, people are looking at. It's just what it 

There's, yeah,

there's a very interesting pattern I think that people don't recognize or realize is there, and I want to liken it to, to putting her on a musical. 

Hmm, 

When you put on a musical, you have your first read through, no one knows what they're doing, not really. And everybody just goes I'm saying the words.

We are finding out what the shape of the show is. Then you have your rehearsals and your blocking, which is basically making sure you're in the right place at the right time on stage. Then you have your first act run through and a whole load of other stuff comes up in the first act run through that you're not expecting.

And then you do the same with act two, and then you have the Sitzprobe where the orchestra comes in for the first time. Everything goes outta the window because you have a brand new set of experiences that you have to deal with. Then you go back to piano, then you do the dress rehearsal, and then you have a whole lot of things.

Oh no, I've missed one. You have tech week?

Tech

Ah, tech week. I actually have a whole t-shirt about tech week.

Oh 

so everything can go wrong on tech week because suddenly you've got the set, you've got the props, you've got sound, you've got lighting, you've got all sorts of things going on, and you have to do things over and over again.

And of course this is a time, and I know you'll be reminding your singers about this. This is the time when you say. Okay, I'll do it once or twice at the volume level that I am gonna deliver for you and for the next 10 times. You need me to do it? I shall be marking, yes. 

Yes, 

So important to take charge of that moment.

Is it not?

Ab. Absolutely. And it is taking ownership of that moment. And that's where we talk about the agency of ownership of yourselves. You know, I think here's a cold way of, saying it. As actors, we're the marketable commodity. You're your own 

business. 

Yeah. 

Whether we call you freelance, you're your own artist, you are the thing that you market every time you go into an audition.

And that's your instrument and your body and all the skills that you have. And you have to nurture that and you take care of that. And I think, think in particular when we're talking about students, there is that sort of gray area where they feel I always have to deliver. I always have to sing it full out.

I always have to do it because that's what they want of me. yeah, absolutely. We need to remind them that, no, that's not the case. You don't need to give your life for this, everyone. You don't, you don't need to. You don't, you know, nothing is worth 

sacrificing for 

I have, yeah, I have two thoughts about that. I have two different thoughts about that, but before we go there, just let me finish the simile. So you get to opening night and the new thing you have to deal with is the audience. Who bring their own energy. And then you get into the run. And then by the time you're in week 20 of the run, you are in a completely different performance.

It's a whole learning experience. I think exactly that. The same happens in education when somebody auditions for a college. They will have had a lot of experience hopefully being on stage in some way or other, but auditioning for a college is a very different ball game. And also the things that a college is looking for are not necessarily the things that an agent would be looking for.

Because again, the job description's different. So they get through with their college and they do the final performances, and then they go out into the world and they do their first job. And it's like the world has started again. Oh, I've had so many people tell me that. Absolutely fascinating.

And for me, it's the same thing every time you go up a stage in this industry, so you get your first job and it's an ensemble job that has a different feel. You get an ensemble job with a lead cover that has a different feel. You become a swing, that's an entire field of its own.

You do your first lead and each time you have a whole new load of experiences that you need to go through, and it feels really different.

I think the whole thing is about you develop not just as an actor, but a or a singer, but as a performer, all of these stages of development. And people don't recognize that you are not the same person by the end of that sequence that you were at the beginning.

Yeah. Yeah, No I, completely agree with that. And, And do you know, what we're, sort of is perspective, aren't we in, that we are sitting on these microphones and we have this perspective. We've been through these things ourselves, but students haven't been through that just yet.

uh, in a way, this sounds a bit harsh, but sometimes you need to let people scrape their knees to to, the lesson, you know, oh gosh, it was terrible. Why did I say that? Uh, you, you know, 

true. 

because it's true. Exactly. And, we need to let the students go through those phases to experience those things, to go, oh, I see.

I, get it. I have to have my own experience of that so I can gain my own perspective. And we do have to let them have that. Although, we would also not be doing them a service if we didn't give them the heads up that that's the case. You know, the beautiful thing about learning and teaching, but then also moving into applying it into, into a career, into a profession is that what we do is so ephemeral, it? Ephemeral, as in it's always different. It's always changing. And I like the idea of we can only be as good as we can be in the moment that we're in, which is different than the moment before and the moment yet to come.

And, and I think as teachers, if we can convey that to our students, whether that's in the practice room, in the lesson room, in a rehearsal hall, or engaging with agents or moving into the rehearsal process, that if we can convey that to them, maybe if they take that on board, they might give themselves a little permission to grow and shift.

And, don't wanna say to fail, but that also really might be part of it as well. Where they're going, okay, I don't need to be so hard on myself.

Absolutely. I want to just throw a random idea into the pot, and I dunno what you think about this. It might be something that's already happening within the educational spaces, but just thinking about this part of the conversation when we're talking about, you do your three or four year training, however long it is, and that prepares you to go into the profession, then of course the whole business of being in the profession is very different.

How many places and maybe GSA is doing it already, how many places actually offer some kind of alumni, program or meetings where people, you know, groups of grads get together and, and just brainstorm how they've been managing. 

Yeah. I have to say, rather embarrassingly, we don't have a specific program, although we've been very clear with the students that just because you've graduated doesn't mean it's that you're not part of the family. Don't grace our door ever again. Um, fact I, carry it as a bit of a badge of honor.

I think all of the teaching staff do when students that have graduated reach out to us and ask for guidance and 

help and coaching 

Mm. Mm-hmm. 

and lessons and all that kind of stuff. Uh, most of the time uh, sort of groupings are student led or

Yeah.

Of course, they rely a lot on social media uh, Instagram and whatnot, to organize those things.

There's been a number of different events that, that graduates have, produced themselves as a way to network and all that kind of stuff. Um, Yeah. I'm ashamed to say we don't have a specific, organization or, or system for that other than please. Please stay in contact with us.

Stay, stay connected. Um, a track record of hiring graduates to take on teaching positions years after they've graduated. And, And uh, you know, we, we welcome that sort of thread in the fabric of our family, you know, I that's exciting when that happens. Uh, But you what you're inside your question, you're also asking about what support networks are there for, 

A Absolutely.

and I, think we're seeing more um, Claire was talking about her secret saying it, which I think is a really brilliant idea.

A space where we are allowed to be a little bit more vulnerable perhaps once we've established our place within an industry or a level in a career. It's great to have those kinds of things. There are more and more of those sorts of opportunities showing up. And, I think we, back to what you're saying before Gillyanne, about um, not a competition.

I think it's easy for us as actors to feel like, gosh, all my peers are being seen for things. Gosh, all my peers are being cast and maybe I'm not. And those are the people that we don't wanna leave behind. We don't want them to, you know, they have all the potential. It's just the moment hasn't been right.

So having these sort of connection uh, I think is hugely beneficial. The challenges is most of the time they have to lead them 

themselves

Can we talk about moments 

in the woods? 

Moments are really, I have no idea what's coming out here. No, but 

Oh, I'm looking forward to it.

It's really fascinating because it's such a great phrase and it's also such a great description that, 'cause when you were talking about that, I was thinking there are some people who's, who haven't grown into their casting yet, literally physically have not grown into the casting yet.

They're going to be cast enormously well in their late thirties or in their forties or, and so it's about finding ways of making it work up until that point. But I think the mo that you said, the moment hasn't happened yet. And I love that because immediately I thought then you need to create every moment that you can so that other people see you doing what you do.

And I'm a big exponent of. If something isn't happening for you, make it happen somewhere else.

Yeah, absolutely. Uh, I totally agree and I, I that's about being proactive, isn't it? That's you, again, taking ownership of yourself and your work and running your business. I think where people struggle is, again, watching their peers move into to phases of their career, and I'm not perhaps, and that sort of thing, but also sort of like, gosh, I'm getting really tired of making my own work one day.

I just want someone to say. Kevin, you've been hired. Just, do it. But, our side of, from our side of things, you it and I, you know, think of lots of graduates that I think, oh, just hang in there. Just hang in there a little bit longer. Don't lose faith. You know, keep your skills going.

Keep finding ways to, to put yourself out there, to be seen, to be heard. Get your voice out there. But, don't lose faith. Stay just a little bit longer. Just a little bit longer. And, you you're absolutely right. There's lots of people that don't find their moment their, footing in the world until they're in their thirties or, 

There's something I want to, to comment on that because I think this generation of students have opportunities through the internet that people certainly in my generation and the two generations that come after me never had. So you were constantly doing your own thing and trying to get in front of people.

And just as an example, I did a masterclass in one of the. Other colleges and there was one particular girl there, and I thought, you are not quite casting in the right place yet because of the look and the energy and all of that stuff. And then I went online and I watched her do a performance of Mrs. Lovett on video, and it was brilliant. And I just thought, if you can do that, which is you showing you and what you do and how funny you are and how skilled you are, I may not cast you as Mrs. Lovett, but I can see exactly what you can do and therefore I've got other jobs that I could put you in that, that I haven't seen with what you've shown me before.

So I'm all for get out onto the internet. Internet and just put stuff out there.

Yeah, AB absolutely and, actually the internet is part of our industry now, isn't it? You know, look at what it is that we have to teach at drama schools, we're talking about, we're talking about transferable skills, but actually there's so many other things that we do have to be teaching now, and.

 This, this sort of trucks into what is it or what is our job at a drama school and time and all that stuff. But, you're right our, this generation now needs to be social media savvy. They know, they have to know how to film themselves. They have to know how to represent themselves in a media sense to help support their careers.

And if it's done right, goodness, it can be so beneficial. But now it's a tool that we have to be teaching these, students because it's kind of an expectation of our, our world now, isn't it? It's like, different than I have to, it used to be when we were doing this, I need good headshots. Now I need a great reel and I need uh, video footage of me doing it. It all has to go on my spotlight page. And, then I have to have a whole pile of followers on my social media as well. Oh my gosh.

And all of

And do you know, Kevin, this brings us very nicely to something I wanted to ask you, which is as head of a department, what skills do you require from your teachers?

 Um, okay. Well it's sort of getting into ethos territory. I think. 

Okay.

If you don't mind. 

Not at all.

Remember earlier I said I don't feel that teaching at a drama school is a one size fits all event. Right. and, again, we've also talked about individuality. I think when we are really looking at the individuality of, students, not only are we looking at how they work and, who they are, but we're also looking at how they learn.

And in terms of a teaching ethos, I want to provide our students with the tools that they require to make an entrance into the profession, right? Just to make an entrance. And that those tools connect to a good understanding of their instrument, which includes their body. a working knowledge of how their body needs to work in a safe, economical and efficient way, right?

I don't want, I don't wanna be creating actors that have the longevity of five years to work. I want them to work for decades. I want them to have that. And I, strongly feel that it's our responsibility in embracing the individual when we start looking at their learning needs to look at how it is that they learn and how they need to learn, or how they even want to learn.

And this comes down to language, and this comes down to pedagogy and method. And the exercises that we use. What might work for 21 of my 20 student cohort might not work for the 22nd student, and I can't leave them out in the rain. That's not the contract, that's not my job. in terms of then looking at how we do that, I want to have a teaching staff that are what I refer to as multi-lingual, and that's that they are experienced in a wide range of methods and pedagogies and language and information. So that one, I can match students to teachers where we feel there's a, connection, a personality connection, but there's also a language connection. But then, so that I can also perhaps maybe move students to, places where the student gets to experience language they've never heard before.

And very often when that happens, those students go, oh my gosh, this makes so much sense. when we're looking at the, the teaching staff, I want them to have the ability to do that so that if we're with a, particular students with particular teacher and the student's going, you know, really not sure if I quite click with the terms CT and TA that we, we look at it and say, okay, well let's change the language.

Oh, actually I really identify with M1 and M 

mm. 

and I think we need to be flexible to be able to do that. Um, addition to that, then it also not only gives them a, allows the the student to build a toolbox of language and tools that is bespoke to them. And again, we're back to working with their own structures and, whatnot, that this then puts them in a position that when they go off into their careers, they maybe have a bit more ability to self-manage, but then also speak different languages with different practitioners.

Back to that session I was saying about group singing, what's really great is I get, as the years go on, I get to know the students well. I know the teachers really well, that I can say, Hey, Gillyanne, are you studying with Fran? And you say, yes, and I know the language that Fran uses, and then I can work in that way with that student.

Or the student might say, do you know, I've been working with Fran. I really get what she's saying. It's really fabulous, but do you have another way of approaching it? And I might try a different

Mm-hmm. 

Pedagogical approach, a different linguistic set. And sometimes, or often the student might go, oh, that clicked, or I, I do get that.

And then they go back to their lesson with their teacher and they compare, and then they work together. Um, think, there's the potential danger for it to become a, that person said, and that person said. But what I really love about my team is that we're very collaborative. We're very collegial.

We have conversations, we talk about things, we compare notes, we're invited into each other's experiences uh, rooms, all of that kind of stuff, that it's not about Jeremy is right and Gillyanne is wrong. here's, two different approaches. What do you think works for 

you? 

Yeah. I love this. Because I've certainly been in situations and teachers working in other colleges have been in situations where it becomes divisive because in a sense, if we are as teachers in competition with each other in some way, my method is better than your method. Then we're not holding the space for the students, and it's completely natural for the student in that situation to become divisive themselves.

Oh, so and so said this. And then course, course that gets, and we're back to competition again to teacher. Yeah. And if we don't have that collaborative spirit, the sharing, if you like the buddy teaching, sitting in on each other's lessons, it needs to be done in a very open way. We're not going to create that ethos with the students.

Plus then we're getting into what I think is one of the most toxic aspects of the master apprentice model, which is we, teachers are separated from each other. We think it's just about the students. It's not, it's about us as well. 

No, ab absolutely. And you're right, we do need to be careful of, how we behave in that respect, because it becomes a top down model and then the students, as you say, will model that as well. No I, completely agree. And I, think, do you know, oh my gosh, how lucky are we that we live in this time of such great information where, as practitioners ourselves, but also as performers, we get to choose what we do.

We get to choose the words of this person, the words of that person. How does that resonate with me? I kind of think it's foolish of us to not embrace the fact that we have options, that we do have the ability to choose, and then second to that, it would be foolish of us to not be collaborative. In that event um, remember this past summer when we were at the, um, MTEA conference, the Music Theater Educators Alliance.

You led a really great session uh, the both of you with breakout sessions where we asked a lot of questions and I was really, really struck positively by how all of the conversations, how all the answers to the various different questions somehow connected to this idea of, collaboration, of sharing ideas, of opening our doors to each other, of which allows us to open the doors to the students and invite them into the work as opposed to putting it on them.

And I, I kind of loved that. That's seems, anyway, to be a direction that we're all. Moving in, and I, I, I want to applaud that because I think it's healthy. I think it's a, really great way of learning. And again, back to this idea of providing agency for our actors moving on in the world. I think this is it. This is how they will do that.

Do you 

There's another interesting byproduct. Those focus groups were so powerful. Weren't they great? They're

weren't they great? They were so

great. They 

lovely time doing that. There's something that's an interesting byproduct for the students when you have if almost like cross-cultural teaching 

Mm-hmm. 

which is when you go out into the profession, you are gonna have a lot of people on the staff of a musical, of a job giving their opinions about what you do. And they are all gonna be using different language.

Mm-hmm. 

Question really is how do you translate that language when somebody says, to the point where you go, somebody says I want that more purple. And your immediate answer could be do, do you want plum or fuschia?

Mm-hmm. It's like, how do you translate what some people are saying? And this is something I mentioned, I think it was with Claire, which is when a, a young graduate goes out into a job they take everybody's word with the same weight. And they're trying to do all, they're trying to do everything.

Yeah. And get completely tied in knots. And it's a really interesting one. One of the really interesting skills is can you translate what somebody has said into something that makes sense for you?

Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And that's gonna show up in acting and it's also gonna show up in dance as, as well, I think. I think it's pretty common. I love that you said uh, I would like that more purple, because hello. That's exactly what happens, isn't it? But do, and do you know what? I think I'm gonna be doing that now but you know, you know, we, we do see it either, you know, students are in third year, a lot of the schools in third year, the students are often permitted to start auditioning for things and, with agents and all that, sort of stuff.

And, And um, think there is a, a, it's often a. Examples where the students have gone to a, an audition and then maybe a recall, and they've had a moment with the music direction team or the, associate director, whoever's been in there and they're being given this information and, they're told, next time you come back, we'd love to see you again, but could you make it more purple?

And then they come back to the studios and, have a conversation. They go, I have no idea what that means since we start, to break it down. But at that moment you go, but this is a really great example of this is a world that's not pre prescriptive, you yeah. I don't know how that director's gonna work.

I don't know how that music director is gonna work. I don't know how that Vocal coach is gonna work, but you do need to be prepared for that sort of, oh, shall we say, ambiguity. One of the things that I, I find comes up, uh, and this is no shame, no shade, none of that business but, sometimes um, language that has multiple definitions. Let's use the um, one that shows up quite often is speech

or speechy. 

Mm-hmm. 

Can you make that more speechy? What does that mean? You want it more rhythmically spoken on pitch? Do you want that to be a thicker Vocal fold set up? What's, what is it that you really, mean? And I think there's oftentimes where we have moments of confusion of that.

And if we're not given the ability or the time to ask, could you define that? Then it's left to us to have to interpret that and make a commitment to what we think that interpretation is. Bring it in. And hopefully they'll say, actually what we meant was, or Thank you, but no thank you. It is tricky. And again, back to that idea of there's so much learning that happens for these, these actors early in their careers after they've graduated. This is the kind of stuff that I think. Is on that list of what, do they really learn is, oh, yeah. Oh, I know when I auditioned for a Pippa Ailion's casting team that what they want is, or what they mean by such and such is this and not this other thing.

They learn those things as they go, you know?

really interesting. Thank you for that. 

It is clear. We have so much to talk about. But we are running outta time, so will you come back and do another episode with us?

Absolutely. My

pleasure. 

Brilliant. Okay. We'll see you next time. 

Till 

Bye. Bye.