Balancing Vocal Technique & Storytelling with GSA's Head of Singing

🎭 In this powerful episode of This Is A Voice, we welcome back Kevin Michael Cripps, Head of Singing at Guildford School of Acting (GSA), for a deep conversation about the real challenges - and the hidden joys - of training musical theatre performers today.

💬 From breaking down the myth of "giving 100%" to building stamina, challenging beliefs, decoding "mix", and supporting students' mental wellbeing, this is a masterclass in voice education. 
Kevin, Jeremy, and Gillyanne get honest about what it takes to teach sustainably, integrate acting with technique, and prepare students for an evolving industry.

Whether you're a singer, teacher, coach, or student, you'll find something in this episode that resonates. Expect laughter, truth bombs, and a few gentle rants.
#voicetraining #musicaltheatre #dramaschool #gsa 

00:00 The Give-it-all myth debunked
01:01 Calibration - vocal and dramatic sweet spot
02:00 Building stamina - Jeremy's personal story
05:50 Why Plan B might save your voice
07:16 Beliefs can sabotage your singing
12:06 What great teachers actually do
13:58 That moment you hear more than E5
15:43 When students start coaching themselves
17:34 What's heartbreaking? "I can't sing a high Bb"
21:15 What's the story behind the sound?
23:55 Stop teaching exercises in a vacuum
27:03 Congrats on your mix, now WHY?
31:35 What singing education needs next
37:30 The role of a drama college today

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Transcript

0:22

Hello and welcome to This Is a Voice, season 11, episode nine, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And we are continuing to be Vocal about musical theater education with Kevin Michael Cripps. Welcome back Kevin. Hi everyone. Glad to be back today. Hello. So let's launch straight in with the next question. Oh, there was a point that we made, oh, 20 years ago where you were talking about giving 110%. Mm. And I said I had two opposing thoughts on this Yes. Yeah. Yeah. the, the, or giving a hundred percent all the time as a student. Road One is you need to be able to calibrate how much you give Mm-hmm. and that anybody who says I want a hundred percent all the time is lying to you because they don't. No. don't want a hundred percent all the time, otherwise it would be absolutely manic full on the entire time. Mm-hmm. Vulnerable. Yes. You'd either end up being a, a, a wreck or you'd be a serial killer. It's like there, there in there, nothing in between. So one of the things is calibrating and yes, I want you to be able to access that a hundred percent, whatever you think a hundred percent means, because it could be, I want you to be really powerfully internally. It could be, I want you to be very loud. I want you to go and strangle somebody. It could be anything. But, so route one is I want you to be able to calibrate, but I need you to be able to hit that a hundred percent on cue Mm-hmm. even though it's not a hundred percent, but don't tell anyone. No, we don't say no. And the other version is actually the one that I did at college, which is I am gonna put my all into absolutely everything I do because I want to build stamina. Mm-hmm. Oh, I've heard that one and no, but it actually worked for me. It did, yes. Because I ended up doing, I was when I was at college, I was doing accompaniment. So I was a collaborative pianist for three years and I did every concert I could get my hands on. So I was learning massive amounts of repertoire. I was getting used to being in public, I was getting used to playing piano, and I did it all full out as it were. And it stood me in good stead now, because here I am 40 years later and I'm still using repertoire. I was playing at college and I know where it is and I know how to work it. So there's two versions for me. The danger of going full out all the time is that you don't actually rest. Yeah, Yeah. Absolutely. You're, you're, you are really talking about creating a way to get to know yourself and to get to know your boundaries. And I, I like this. I, there's a couple things I'd like to use to together in this Go for it. I like, I like the idea of creating frameworks. Let's go too far for a second. Just this once. Let's, let's make this crazy sound. Let's make this sound and, and let's go too far. What did, what did you, what do you take from that? What do you feel? What do you notice? And then I like to do, you know, the body mapping sort of work. I like the idea of, on a scale of one to 10, 10 being holy heck, that was a lot of work. I don't know if I can sustain that. One being lump of you jello on the floor, no bones. That was so easy. Where do you, where do you sit in that, in that spectrum? So then we go to that full opposite 10. And then we go down to the one and we, we compare and we go, let's see if we can find maybe a five or a six or a four or something. And then the conversation is, what did you feel? Where do you feel the best? Where do you feel that you are the most in control? Where do you feel that you are sustainable? Maybe it's the four, maybe it's the seven, well, that's individual to the student. And then we go, okay, now this gives you something to practice with. Can you memorize your seven? Can you remember, remember what a six felt like? And then every now and then, maybe give yourself a 10, but don't do it often so that you have that to compare. And then recognize that as you grow and develop as, as your musculature grows, as your skill grows, as your experience grows, that those effort levels are likely to change what once felt like a nine, maybe now actually is a seven. And you have to be aware of what that is. And I think, I think whether we're talking about the a hundred percent or 10 out of 10, it really is really the same thing. The idea is you are getting to know what are the limits? What's too much, what's not enough and what's, where's the middle space and how does that, how does that move? And then you can translate that into your, your other work as well. You can take it into other aspects of your work, not just, not just singing. Love that. I think it's so interesting what you've talked about here because I'm immediately seeing that in a functional aspect as well. Which is, in terms of how flexible you are across that middle zone. Yep. Between the 1 to 10 space, that is actually what gives you the security blanket so that, on your lowest common denominator days, you can go out there and you will still deliver something and maybe you'll be around, the four or five space, but it works well and on your good days, you're gonna be delivering, maybe the seven, eight or, or even possibly a nine. But if that mid zone and we're not talking about mix here, people if that, if we have flexibility within that mid zone, that is really gonna help us with sustainability and with longevity. Yeah, absolutely. Do you know, I, I often talk about the Plan B singing Mm-hmm. The Plan B Presentation, and the Plan B sort of starts, the conversation comes out of, oh, it's hay fever season. My voice is not responding the way it does when it's not hay fever season. Or I've got a cold, or my life is heavier right now. If something personal has happened. Whatever the situation is that sometimes we have to change that effort level to accommodate where we are. So we're normally as a six, you're right. Absolutely. I have to, to, to have knowledge of what a four is that I can trust. That I feel still connected to the work, that I feel that I'm still in control of what it is that I'm doing. And do you know, do you know it's hard to convince people of that. I I'm sure you've experienced that where, where, where convincing people that a plan B isn't giving up, plan B isn't failure, It's not cheating. it's not cheating. That's right. You, you know that this is, this is a really wonderful. A tool to have in your back pocket. And I, I, look, it's, hello listeners. It's me, sat here, no longer performing. And I have to say, boy, there are lots of things that I say that I didn't practice when, when I was a performer. But, but, but do you know how, how easy it is for me to sit out here and say, Hey, Jeremy, just trust your plan B. It's okay. It's great. It's more than enough. And, and to get people to, to believe that sometimes is really hard. Again, it comes back to that I want people, the industry to like me and cast me. People paid money, it's the whole people pleasing thing. I want to talk about beliefs 'cause I'm so glad you've gone here. Mm-hmm. It is one of my things. So many people I mean we all carry beliefs around with us.'cause part of the, the power of belief is that enables you to get through life. Mm. And you often will sit on and rely on your beliefs in order to get you through a situation. I think the really interesting place, and I think anybody who is teaching artists of any kind will realize this, whether they do it consciously or unconsciously, is that we all carry beliefs. And sometimes those beliefs work and sometimes they get in the way. Yeah. And we do a whole radial of, in fact we do two radials of all the things that you can do as a singer and all the, the things that you carry and belief is the strongest one. Mm-hmm. Because you can hit a belief in a student and nothing you say Yeah, is gonna change that belief, nothing. Mm-hmm. And so that belief will always override whatever it is that you're doing. Mm-hmm. And it's why I'm connecting two things together. I love calibration. I love the idea that you, calibration gives you alternatives. Calibration gives you a whole, not just one thing that works, but a whole range of things that work. And when you are on board with calibration, it can help you go, the belief that I have is too rigid. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. there are many more versions of this belief that I can play with. And then the belief starts to lose its grip on you. And you become more creative, you become more open, you become more aware of what you're doing. Mm. And I absolutely love that. I just wanted to link those two together. Mm-hmm. love, I love that too. Do you know, in a way you're also talking about actor superstitions. Yeah, good point. Where this is, this is my belief because this is what my experience has been, and now I treat it like a religion or a superstition and, and letting go of. I'm sorry for this analogy. Letting go of a religion or letting go of a a a superstition is really hard. It's really hard because you've learned to trust it, and, and, And often ground feels like it's falling apart. Yeah, and often people aren't even aware of it. Yep. So that, that's the thing. Whereas, once, once you are able to unpack it or because as a teacher or, or a coach holding the space, I think it's very important that you don't immediately challenge or contradict that belief. You as a, a trainer, you need to be curious about it and say, oh, tell me more about that. How would it be if and what Jeremy's offering is options within that belief. Yes, yes. And that's, that's exactly it. And, and, and, and options within that belief is that I, I think is the right way to go because if we, if we say, oh, stop believing that we're dismissing their experience. You can't take that away from them. That's, yeah. That's not appropriate. that's, that's it. Do, do you know what I I, and I, I have to say I'm guilty of little moments of that. There's always, oh, there's always a day somewhere where you are working with students who, you as the teacher are feeling, Yeah. You're, you are doing it. You're, you're, you're connecting the dots. It's not maybe consistent yet, but you're doing it and I am so proud of what you're doing. But then the student tries it and it's inconsistent, and, and they make the face, maybe there's a tear or two. Often it's a few four letter words, this, this sort of thing. And you, you think, don't yuck my yum. I'm, I'm really enjoying what you're doing, and I'm excited to celebrate where you're at, which includes the moments when it is Mm-hmm. Un unstable, and I, I think that those self-judgment moments come back to what you were just saying, Jeremy, about their beliefs and belief, what they feel they should be accomplishing. Maybe that's in comparison to their peers or what they think others want from that. I don't, I don't know. That's for them to know, but, but gosh, that's, it's challenging for us as teachers to, to not one day want to throw our hands up in the air and say, stop. I wish you could see yourself the way I see you. They have to have their experience. Oh, can we? Yeah. And that's circling back to what you said about your small group sessions where they're with their peers and they get that feedback, they get that reflection from someone else saying well, actually, that one worked really, really well. I love the way you do that because it, it's that thing about, it's how the brain processes. You, you do something. And because we are very driven as performers, and often as teachers, we're driven as well. We want to get through the lesson. We want to really give them value. And they don't take those, what is it, Kittie Verdolini talks about the three second rule, shut the fuck up for three seconds as a teacher and maybe as a performer. Allow those three seconds when you did something to register, register so that the brain can register the new behavior. How was that? How was that? I got very excited about this. Yeah. I want to talk about one of the roles of a teacher, which I think is, is rare in the whole sequence of the people that student will work with. It's so clear to me that one of the roles of the teacher is to recognize where someone is on a scale, on a standard on a level of experience. And to get them from A to B. Or at least show them how they can get from A to B rather than dragging them with you. There's something about recognition of someone's level. Mm-hmm. and then a really good teacher has the ability to break something down. And it can be, I, I don't care. It can be instructions, it can be literal stuff, it can be imagery, it can be feel, I don't care what it is. But the point is that they do steps. So they will see that this person is at position A and they want to be at position B, or they need to be at position B, or there is a requirement for them to be at position B and it's steps. And I think the, it's, it's the thing for me, interestingly, that separates a teacher from an agent. Mm-hmm. Because an agent wants to know what can I, what can you do now? Yes. What can I put you in right now? Whereas a teacher goes, what will you be able to do in three weeks time? Or What will you be able to do in a year's time? Let's get you there. And I think it's a, yeah. Really different mentality. It's something it's something we do on the accreditation program. It's that whole business of yeah, steps and breaking, breaking stuff down. Can I just leap in here, Kevin?'cause I know you want to say something as a, a Vocal trainer as well. It's something I think about a lot as a teacher, and it does have to be managed well within the, in, the, the one-to-one situation. But you, you watch and you listen to a singer and you work with them, and I think you form a trajectory. For example, when someone comes into a session and maybe they're hitting E5 and you know damn well there's an Ab5 in that voice, how do you know that? Is it just experience or is it something that you are listening for? Wow. How do we do that? Do you know what? We're unicorns, aren't we? Yeah. Are we special? No, no, no, no. I take that back. I take that back. No, but do you know what, it's, it's funny you should say that because I think about this all the time and I think, how often you hear the sounds that the singer makes, the student makes and you think, oh, I can hear there's potential in there for more. I don't know how it is that I can hear this potential for more, but I do know that when you do have those gut instinct feelings, it's worth exploring and, hey look, I'm the first person to say, Hmm, I was wrong. But actually, I think in those moments when we're looking at, oh, I think there's more, I think we can find other colours, other setup choices, other whatever it is let's not discount anything. Never. Let's never discount anything because I don't wanna shut the doors on anything I want to say. Look, where we're at is great for today. It's possible. That is the Vocal range. Maybe that's, that's what it is. Your structures are still growing, but maybe that's what it is. And that's cool, that's great. But also here are some thoughts or tools or exercises that we can do to explore those other potentials. And maybe we did make quick discoveries. Maybe we suddenly go, oh my goodness, did you know you could do that? I love when those happen, but they don't always happen. There might be observations that those singers can make that they go, oh, I don't know that I'm ready for that now. But let's come back to that. Do you know what do you know what I really love in teaching is when it's a collaborative experience between the teacher and the student. I'm, I'm, sometimes you do have students that they come in, especially, in, in first year where they've decided, I'm gonna come to that school and you're gonna teach all over me and make me the thing I want to be. But actually in time when they get to the point where they have a collection of information, a knowledge base to, to, to grow from. I like it when it becomes that sort of relationship where I can say, what do you think? How would you, now, if, if you were me, what do you think I would say? Or how would you approach this? What are the options that we've got at our disposal to explore this thing? And I love that sort of thing. And in particular, I love it when the students get done. This does happen quite often where the students go, hold on Kevin. I wanna do that again. I'm gonna change this. And, and then you just go, I'm, I'm, yeah, alright then let's do that. And, and it may go the way they want it to or it may not, it doesn't matter. It's just information gathering, and, and I love when we get that sort of collaborative ball rolling and it does allow us to go, let's then explore. Let's go hunting. Let's, let's go off on this journey into the jungle and see what happens. Isn't that a great place to be? Yes. Absolutely. I love that when you, you've been able to create that space with an individual. Yeah. And I just want to say, for any would-be musical theatre performers listening to this, or musical theater singers listening to this just because we, the three of us here, had a conversation about range as an example of imagining the potential and visualizing the potential, this is not about range prowess. That's, that's not the deal. Sometimes people fall into that trap. We were just using that as a particular example of what a good coach can be doing when they're collaborating with the singer in the room to what they might be able to do with a bit of work. Do you know what's really. I find quite disheartening and I I'm sure many of your listeners have experienced this as well, is how often we get things like, oh, I can't sing a high Bb, therefore I'm not a good singer. Or I'm quote unquote just a baritone, no one's gonna want me. And and when you dig into that, why, why do you think that? Oh, because everything that's being written now wants the baritone to sing whatever note and you think there's still a place for you. We haven't got rid of the things that came before that newest writing, that newest thing. We haven't. And, and it, I, I find it quite heartbreaking when you have a student that is got just pots and pots of potential and they go, yeah, I, I must be a bad singer because I can't sing whatever. And you just think, oh, goodness me. No, don't, please don't take that on. It's not about how high you can go. It's not that. The other, the other part of that is I often get emails from, from singing teachers or, we've, we we have this wonderful organization here, don't we? The AOTOS, the Association of Teachers of Singing and full of really wonderful people, wonderful teachers that have been invited to, to connect with me if, if they have questions about their own students auditioning for the program and, and, and whatnot. And. From time to time, there are those kinds of questions. Look, I've got this student who's really wonderful. I think he's got great potential, he struggles with his upper passaggio. Is this viable? Should the student audition? Yes, of course. This student should audition. One doesn't matter if, if, if they never get past that upper passaggio. And two, they're probably 17 years old and still growing. I don't know what their world is gonna be like in 10 years and 20 years. Oh my gosh the notes that I was able to sing in my thirties, I never dreamt in my twenties that I could do. And yeah, I just find that really sad when that comes up and I think, oh Yeah. let's not go there. was, so that was, I, I, I really like the way you've spoken about this. Yeah. So thank you for doing that. It was something that I was gonna bring up, which is you are working with students whose voices are still settling and developing. Absolutely. And it's there's got to be a care system in there, which says yeah. You may have those notes. The, my favorite one is, is somebody, a 15-year-old boy coming, oh. And I'm gonna be a tenor, and I'm going, really? Okay, good. I shall watch then. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, yes. Okay. Hey, at least they've got a positive attitude as long as they're willing to do, listen, Yeah. work, but No, no, it is, it is. And actually back to some of the conversations that you've previously had, both with Mike and, and with Claire. Oh. Which by the way, I have to tell you, Claire, if you're listening, I am absolutely now in love with you because I found myself quietly shouting. Yes, yes, yes, yes. I agree. Let's meet. absolutely. But, but, listening to some of the, the, the, the conversations there about should we be creating people that can do almost mimicked copies of, of what the people before us have, have done? And I think, yeah, I very much feel, no, I think back to the individuality, what do you bring to this role as an actor? What do you bring to this role as a vocalist? Do you have the stamina and the stability and sustainability to manage it and all that kind of stuff. But, but I think often, again, when you're working with theater students, they, doesn't matter how often you have the conversation about reminding them, it's, it's you and not someone else's version, how they always, or often go back to comparing themselves and go, oh yeah, I see what the industry wants. They want the baritone noticing a flats, and No, no, no, no. Do you, do you, you don't There's something, I think this is really interesting. Okay. Congratulations on being able to sing Ab5. Yes. Yeah, done. Is that the only a flat five you've got? Is that the only sound you're making? Does that, what does that mean? What is the, what's the meaning behind that sound? What's the story behind that sound? Why is your character actually making that sound on that note? Mm-hmm. So if you can't give me six different versions of that Ab, go back to your lessons and start again. That's because you need variety. You need the ability to be able to portray on an Ab so many different emotions, so many different situations. It's the thing that I think Claire described very well, and actually we talked about it with Mike as well. Sorry, I get across at that moment. Because one of the things that Mike said, if you sing it in a different key, 90% of the people won't know. Obviously within the musical theater space, if you're working with a particular score in a performance, then you will need usually to deliver that so that. Mostly. They don't have to print things up again. But where was I going? Why is that high note there? Yeah. And why is it written like that? And why, why does your character think that high note's there, what's going on and all those things. You, if you're gonna super important gonna. If you're gonna throw a high note in that's not in the score, you better have a really good reason why you are doing it. That isn't listen to my voice. Oh, you've been listening. Yeah, yeah, yeah. To too many sopranos. Yeah. Yeah. I'm on, unfortunately, I'm on TikTok soprano at the moment. that's, that's how I feel about riffing, I think. Okay. Riffing is great as a style, but, but in, in musical theater, you have to earn the right to do that, and the right is, does it, does it connect to your story and does it advance the plot? Do you know, I moving on a little bit, but related to this, again, back to some of the conversations that you've previously had looking at. Maybe what is our job in teaching in preparing these students for the industry and, and gosh, you think, gosh, there's, there's, there's so much that we have to cover, but what I loved, I loved love both Mike and Claire talked about inside everything at the heart and soul of everything is acting and storytelling. I don't want to go and pay my£200 to sit in the West End and want someone demonstrate how fabulous they're, as a vocalist. I want to live in the story of what it is that I'm seeing. And, and, but I think our job as teachers is to make sure that the student, students do have those tools to be able to work themselves to a safe place, to a healthy, sustainable standard so that they know their instrument, they trust their instruments, so that when they get to adding on the layers of storytelling, they can just trust it and it's there in their back pocket. And they know that they're not putting themselves in danger. And I think that's important. I do know that, there's times within our studios, today we have to focus on a very technical thing and it, whatever that is today, we are just doing set. And this is not about acting through song. This is not about storytelling, but we also have to be very careful in the studio that we're not divorcing our work. Yeah. Yes. That we're not separating the work that we do as Vocal technicians and teachers from the work that we are going to be doing as actors. Because inevitably what ends up happening is I go, yeah, I can do it when I'm standing there singing in front of you and the, the room is lovely and warm and everything is great with acoustics, but then I take it to an acting through song class and suddenly I can't sing it anymore. Let's examine why that is. Oh, what we've prepared in terms of setup. In theory is not actually what you're bringing when you start adding your storytelling in. So let's find a way to start integrating this so that you trust your technical theory so that when you are telling that story, it doesn't change or it's flexible enough to change in a way that's beneficial rather than detrimental. yeah. A hundred percent. Very interesting point. Can we, can we, hang on'cause I need to go here. Okay. Somewhere I want to go. I need to go here. I do not agree with Vocal exercises by themselves. No you don't. No. He never has done No, I never have done, in 40 years of coaching, I have never done Vocal exercises that are by themselves. The point of a Vocal exercise is for you to be able to put it into context. Mm-hmm. So as a singing teacher, if you are teaching people and you are teaching them doing warmups or you're teaching them doing Vocal exercises, if you don't immediately put it into a phrase or put it into a song, then you are completely divorcing technique from reality. yeah. Absolutely. Do you know, do you know, I wonder, I'm, I'm only guessing, but I also wonder if that connects to your experience as a music director as well. Claire was talking about working with actors performers who are approaching the work from an acting base, rather this, what did you say? Acting brain Acting brain and singing brain. Yeah. Yeah. And, and I have to say, I quite love working with people approaching singing from the actor brain because it, it challenges me to find different ways of working. And I, I definitely long ago came to the same conclusion that you've come to as well in that Okay, my job in that case, maybe as a music director is to get a performance that this actor feels they can trust and that they are confident in, and they don't feel vulnerable and they don't feel like someone's gonna judge them. And oftentimes the technical work to support that, to coach them into it came always from an acting point, an intention and impulse. Let's make this sound, but let's make that sound as if we are, whatever, whatever. Yep. And, and I think back to what you said about not divorcing it, it does, it paves the way for the, the singer to see how they can apply it. Whether we're talking about approaching it from the singer brain or the actor brain, they can see, and again, act, we the people of the theater, we love to have something where we go, I can see why I'm doing it. I can see why I'm doing this exercise. It's going to benefit me, not just in achieving this mix. Whatever that is, it's gonna benefit me in what I want to do. And what I want to say, I'm sorry. You, you just, it was a little red flag for me. I need to achieve this mix. Why? Yes. Why? why does your character need. Jeremy, Jeremy, the answer always comes down to that. That's, that's how, how so-and-so sings it on the album. You Don't care. again. Yeah. Don't care. Yeah. That's good for them, but how about you? So many moments with, with Mix, over decades and decades of teaching and, and, my advice to other teachers is tell me about Mix. Yeah, tell me about it. How does it sound? How does it sound if it's not mixed, why are we achieving it? Great. And then, as we said earlier, maybe offering other frameworks, oh, maybe this is, mm-hmm. Thicker, thinner, maybe this is M1, M2 or something like that. Let's explore that. And Mm-hmm. to be honest, if the word mix is what resonates with them, and right across the board, in a lot of research materials, singers, experience things that they call mix. It's a reason why I did a PhD. It's not what I ended up studying, but so many of my singers were coming in saying, oh, but it feels like a mix. And I'm thinking that, that's not the way I was trained. I'm sure this, and, and yet they were producing something and I thought, okay, I need to go and study because there's stuff going on here that I don't know about. Yeah. Yeah. It's back to that idea of what belt feels like for me might feel different for you. Yes. you. Know, you know that, there's, there's that. I also do, I find myself, this is gonna sound really wanky, I'm so sorry, but on almost on a daily basis, I have to remind myself that when engaging with a student, and we're talking about when we do this exercise, I feel blank. I have no idea that when I say, oh, I feel a cough, or a tickle or, a scratch, and they say, oh, I feel a cough, a tickle or a scratch. We have no idea if we're actually talking about the same thing. And, and in particular when we're talking about different Vocal qualities in, in, in setup, I've, I've definitely learned, I might. Interpret what I hear and think to me that sounds like a head dominant mix. But actually I've, I've learned to let the student come to the conclusion of what they're gonna name it, because it has to be named within relationship to the other sounds that they make. So for, for, for, for now, there the one that gets me, oftentimes I perceive something as well that sounds like a head dominant mix. I keep that to myself and they're going and I say, so what do you call that? And they say, oh, that's my, my chest dominant mix. And I'm thinking, Hmm, that's not what it sounds like to me. And then we explore other sounds. They go, oh, actually I see what they're talking about. I see what that is. I don't know that it's my place to actually title all of these things because I can't feel what they can feel and I'll never know what they feel, you I think I, I, I do agree with you, of course, for us as, as pedagogue, it's quite nice to have these labels. It helps us to sort out things. But, oh, where was I going with that? A profound thought was definitely arriving. While you're having your profound I master while your profound thought arrives. Let me jump in with this one. Okay. I ultimately don't mind what you call it, but there's a difficulty. There are two difficulties. One is, is it the same every time you do it? Mm-hmm. If it's the same every time you do it, you can call it Fred. You can label it as Fred and it will always be Fred. Mm-hmm. Yes. Jeremy, I have to tell you, I use the word Fred all the time. Oh, I'm so pleased I Fred Ginger, Get out my brain! We've been using Fred for, for decades. Actually, I need say no more because I think you've probably picked up that thought. Okay. And left my brain and went into yours apparently. And the, the second, the second issue with it is what is a head dominant mix to you? Mm. If somebody else says, I want you to do a head dominant mix, and you do your head dominant mix, and they went, no, that's not what I meant at all. Yeah. The difficulty with these labels is that they're entirely personal. They're also ultimately entirely meaningless except to you. Mm. And it's like I said, if every time somebody says to you, I want your head dominant mix, you produce the same thing, then that's your label and it's accurate. If, if they give you a label to do and you translate it as that, you don't know that you're actually even communicating the same thing. Yes, absolutely. Jeremy, I have nothing more to say on that because you've said it far better than I did. That's exactly what I mean. Oh, you. Hey, hey, Hey, you two, have you thought about writing books? oh, ooh. There'll be a book in there somewhere. Yeah, definitely a book in there somewhere. I'm just thinking maybe Kevin, it would be interesting, I dunno how you feel about this, when we were talking off record setting up for this podcast, you mentioned that you'd originally signed up for five years at GSA, that was a contract. You've now been there for seven years. Obviously you've been managing and growing a department in a particular direction, and I love all the things you've spoken about. What's on your wishlist for the department in the future? Dare I? You Hmm. Put you there? Are we allowed to know? Oh gosh. That's a lot. Do you know what, Hmm? I don't know if this is a wishlist or a rant. Is there a difference? I N not really. Not in my book. I ran so welcome. Yeah. do you know? My, my, my wishlist is that somehow there was more time, our world keeps adding expectation. The way we teach now is different than the way we taught 20 years ago, or 30 years ago, 50 years ago. Not that anything was wrong before, but because we need to do more. What I would love to see is a better way or a way of structuring, maybe it's time management now, the idea of time. So yes, there's, there's more that's being added to the workload. So where once we had to cover a range of potential legit styles and something we'd called contemporary, and then something that's really a shifty called contemporary legit, uh uh. And now I also have to cover not just one style of generic pop, but I could literally do three years of pop rock as a music theater degree. I literally could do it three years and, and rap and r and b and all, all this kind of stuff. And there's just such pressure on time for students to explore these things that they never really get a chance to live in the exploration, because no sooner have you started, you gotta move on to the next thing. And we've gotta cover these things. Not to make them experts, but just so they have a chance to dabble their toes in the water and say, what is this like? And how do I connect to it? Because I might need it later on in the future. The other part of time is, and this is a big conversation. As we are adding things, dance is a really good example. The buzzwords right now are commercial dance. So you know, always has been, most of the schools have always taught jazz, tap, ballet, jazz, tap ballet. And then within jazz it breaks down into various different forms of jazz. And now we're adding onto it this commercial style dance. Because we're seeing it show up in professional theater work. We're seeing it in film musicals and all this stuff. We need to expose our students to this. We need to have, give them the opportunity. So we keep adding things, but then it means the schedule gets tighter and tighter and tighter. We're rarely taking things away. I can't say, you know what? We're adding commercial. Let's get rid of tap. We still need to do that as well. So the schedule gets quite tight. And what it means is that the students don't have a lot of time to do private and personal practice. When they get a finally get a 45 minute lunch break, they just need to sit and have lunch. They, they need to rest their bodies. They need to rest their voices and not go and spend their 45 minute break in a practice room working on their technical exercises, and then the day finishes at seven o'clock. They need to go home and have dinner and do their laundry and watch mindless something on television. But then they also have to learn that monologue and learn the five different things they have to do for dance assessment and practice the thing that they've done in technical exercise work. And, it's a lot. And they, what we find is the students, they, yes, of course they're making progress. Of course we can see the difference from a student in the beginning of first year to the end of third year. But what we don't have is the luxury of freedom for these students to find time for them to create a schedule of solid good, healthy, smart, smart is the word practice. I wish we could find the answer for this, Yeah, because they're, they have to be, they have to, on top of all that you've just described, they have to manage somehow to get a decent night's sleep so that they're ready to go at nine o'clock the next morning. yeah, yeah. Look, I, I, I'm not a fool. I, I was a student myself too. I know. Okay. I've got an acting through song class or a repertoire class tomorrow morning, a Monday morning at 10 o'clock and it's Sunday. I know that a lot of times they go, this is the only time I have, so they cram something into their head, regurgitate it out for the class, get some feedback and notes, and move on to the next thing. You know, which isn't really good use of time. Is it, that's, and that is so hard. Mm. You know, so you said what, what do you dream of? The impossible, but I think the other, the other thing that would be really great is, is to continue to strengthen our relationship with this thing we call the industry. We are very lucky to have really fabulous resources available us to us, different casting agencies organizations come to our school and they support our students and they're so generous with graduating students. Agents that we bring down for agent feedback day, where they're providing feedback kindly to the students and all that kinda stuff. We are so lucky to have those kinds of things, but actually to, to create a way where we are really connecting with the casting agents, the agents, the directors, the music directors, the Vocal coaches on really where they see things going. What they want from us, or how we can support them and support the students. Does that make sense? Yeah. So that it's, it's, it's all aligning and all growing together rather than we could talk about this for, for ages, but rather than you are preparing people for something specific in, within this two year space and hoping that those people are gonna get the work. And I have thought it, the educators should be growing at together with the producers. Together, yes. I had a thought about this and it was really interesting with you describing everything that's happening. I'm wondering whether the role of a drama college now, like yours has changed Yeah. From 20 years ago, 30 years ago, whatever. Mm-hmm. That their role then was to put out actors who were rounded and ready to go in the profession. And it, it sounds to me now like your role has changed in that you are doing a grounding for everybody. And because the, the, the spread of what people have to now be able to do or to be able to learn is so wide that what you are doing is a very solid grounding in everything, but you are not necessarily putting out the finished actor to go straight into a leading role in a musical age 21. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. You got it. You, you, you got it. And, and and we, we do see actors graduate from these program into pretty big roles and, and what a wonderful thing for those actors. But again, back to the idea that there's a learning experience. There's a lot of young actors graduating from drama schools here, going into these big roles going, wow, this is different than what I did at school. Do you know what we can't do? I don't know any school that can do this. We cannot give our students a replica of a professional industry experience, as in none of us can give our students a six month to a year long run. Yep. Mm-hmm. None of us can give them the experience of what it's like to do rehearsals the way that we do in a professional environment. Yes, we give them professional experiences by standard or professional behavior. Yes, we bring in professional external creatives to work on things to help introduce the students to some of these professional concepts. But the rigors that are required to make it through the kind of tech week that we might have, or tech weeks that we might have on a professional West End or Broadway show, we can't, we can't give them that experience and, and yeah. A lot of these young people go out there and go, wow, I gave too much. I gave too much in Tech, like you said, now I dunno what to do. And you go there, you've, you've learned, but let's have a conversation about it. But yeah. So interesting. It has been such a joy talking to you mm-hmm. And sharing the stuff and all the things that, not just you are going through, but actually the, the, the responsibilities that the students have Yeah. And the level of things that they need to do is just so fascinating. And I do think the industry is changing. Yes. Which is yeah, yeah. We've, how wonderful, five years ago, six years ago, during the pandemic, the world started to look at itself, I think, and I, I'm, I, I love that I hear it called the social revolution. And, and we are looking at, globally, we were looking at all things, let's say EDI and, and and whatnot. But, but actually we were forced into a position as drama schools to hold a mirror up to our behaviours Mm-hmm. as teachers, up to the practices that we maintain up to the exercises, the pedagogies and all that stuff. And, and at first it was a little bit scary, I'm not gonna lie. We were thinking, oh, I've taught like this for 20 years, how am I gonna change? But then. Going through those changes when actually this has reinvigorated my work and I'm falling in love with it a little bit more. But yeah, you're right. The industry is changing in how we see actors and how we respond to actors and how we work with actors. I love that we are much more in support of the notion of covers and swings. That again, it isn't so much the show must go on, you've gotta fight through that torn ligament or, or what, what, whatever it is. I'm, I'm glad that we are moving in a much more positive let's say, actor friendly way. I think. I I think that's great. We have more work to do, don't we? We have more work to do and, but I'm, I'm really excited again, like we said, at the MTEA conference last year, just really how exciting it was. I know what I was gonna say that sort of taxed onto this as well, and then I'll stop blathering at you, was back to this idea of connecting to the industry and, and finding out what it is that they have to say and what it is that they want. We've also had a lot of conversation about should it be the industry telling the education world what is required or should it be the education world informing the industry of what we're willing to put out, whether that's talking about body types or skill or, or whatnot. And I think that's a really interesting conversation Mm-hmm. to, to, to further, I don't know what the answer is. I really don't know what the answer is. There's definitely a symbiotic relationship between these two things. But yeah, I think it is a conversation that needs to be furthered. I Hmm. Absolutely agreed. Fantastic. Ahh, I think that's a wrap. Is that a wrap? That's a wrap. Does that feel like a wrap? oh my gosh, what a treat and what a joy to, to, to be with you icons that I've followed forever. I just, how, how wonderful, what a, what a absolute pleasure to to chat and oh my gosh, you might have me showing up at your doorstep ready to do this again tomorrow. Oh, thank you Kevin. It's been a joy. Absolutely. And we will see you soon. Bye. you. Bye for now.