Dealer's Choice. 5 years, 100+ episodes and our favourite vocal moments

This isn’t just a podcast. It’s a five-year deep-dive into the voices, lives and lessons of singers, teachers and coaches around the world.

In this special fifth anniversary episode of This Is A Voice, Jeremy and Dr. Gillyanne revisit the most powerful, personal, and punch-in-the-gut moments from over 100 episodes.
From life-changing reflux wake-ups, to the moment a singer’s voice disappeared on stage, to a viral blog on “Success Amnesia”... this is Dealer’s Choice.

Whether you're a singer, coach, SLP, SLT or voice-curious creative, this episode is a masterclass in resilience, taste, recovery, self-worth and biscuit tins.

Featuring:

  Vocal injuries (and how to recover)
  The truth about reflux for voice users
  Why your "classical voice" isn't a prison 
  When technique isn’t the answer (but safe space is)
  What to do when you forget your own success

00:00 Vocal For 5 Years - Here's What We've Learned
01:00 Our First Episode & Gillyanne's Dad's Biscuit Tin
02:00 Sing the Whole Song or Work on Fragments?
04:56 This Popular Episode on Reflux Might Change Your Teaching
10:38 Singers: Doing What You Love Or Just Coping?
14:53 Her Voice Cut Out On Stage. What Happened Next?
23:29 "Why Don't I Feel Successful?" This Might Be The Reason
30:28 The Artist's Curse: Always Onto The Next Thing
32:54 Are You Vocally Biased? The Need-To-Know About Taste
37:05 Teachers Can Be Cruel To 10-Year-Olds
39:50 80% of Voice Coaching Is This (It's Not Technique)
45:58 MT Singers: This Mindset Shift Will Change Your Singing
47:14 Share Your Favourite Episode

Perfect for: musical theatre singers, contemporary artists, classical performers, vocal coaches, SLPs, and anyone who’s ever lost their voice — literally or metaphorically.

#voicelossonstage #refluxandsinging #musicaltheatre 

Remember to like, subscribe, and hit the bell icon for more insightful episodes. Leave a comment below on what inspired you the most! 👇

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Transcript

TIAV S11 Ep11 Dealers' Choice

[00:00:22] Hello and welcome to, this is a Voice, season 11, episode 11, the podcast where we get Vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes, and it's happy anniversary to us. Yeah. How many years? Five years to the day since we did our first podcast episode. Wow. Well over a hundred episodes ago.

[00:00:42] Mm-hmm. What an amazing journey we've had. Yeah. So we're gonna actually bring you on the journey 'cause um, we are calling this one something like Dealer's Choice. Oh, we are going to choose our favorite three episodes from the hundred plus that we've [00:01:00] done so far. Mm-hmm. But before that we are actually gonna start with a little excerpt from the very first podcast.

[00:01:06] Oh, okay. Alright. All sorts of things that we did in the first podcast we had, we did have the jingle. Uh, thank you once again to Connagh Tonkinson for that. And we also had the biscuit tin. I dunno if you, if you remember. Oh, the biscuit tin. Oh my goodness. Yes. That was my, my dad's biscuit tin. That was your dad's musical biscuit tin.

[00:01:24] And so we played the little biscuit tin jingle, and in the biscuit tin, we had a whole load of questions that had come up on various courses. And so we decided that we were going to answer some of the questions. Yeah.

[00:01:37] Last question. Last question. Do you ask your client to sing the whole song first or work on fragments of it from the beginning? This is very interesting because we actually talk about this on the course, on the singing. Teachers online. Online singing, teacher online, online singing, teacher training. This is a very interesting one, and we, because we ask people to submit videos of them, of them teaching. We [00:02:00] see every range of this. We see what you do, people we see, we see you. And I think it's really interesting. I have a take on this. You've gotta remember that I come from a musician, Vocal coach background, even though I now do singing technique as well. And my take is let's sing the song.

[00:02:21] I need to know where you are today. If you don't sing anything and you even, interestingly, if you don't sing anything and you don't even know what the song is going to be and you go into warmups, then you are really going blind. My ideal would be to get somebody to sing. At least a verse or a chorus, just to get them into the mood, to get them into the room and to find out where they are and what they're doing that day rather than trying to teach from memory.

[00:02:49] Yeah. Do you know, I mean, we don't know yet what kind of an audience we're getting for this podcast, but what I will say to you, those of you who are singers and who [00:03:00] are looking for good Vocal coaches and teachers, if you don't get to sing your song in the lesson. Or you are consistently being stopped after a few bars and you never get through your song, I don't think your teacher's really serving you. We are not. You're not being served? No. I will say from my perspective that it kind of depends if the client has already learned the song and it's something they want to work on. I will generally hear them sing the whole song through to hear where they are with it.

[00:03:36] Sometimes a client comes in and says, actually, I'm having a problem with this part, and I might listen to that part and then I might go back. Yeah. Because often where there's a problem, it's something that happened eight bars earlier, it's not necessarily where the problem is. Yeah. It's eight bars before I agree.

[00:03:54] It's something that you set up. Yeah. I think there is nothing more frustrating for a [00:04:00] singer than to be stopped after one bar over and over again. Yeah.

[00:04:07] That was so fun. Do you know what? I think we were really quite fluent, given it was our first recording. Well, and also that we had to be very heavily persuaded to get on YouTube in the first place because, um, yes, especially me. Well also be because we obviously put the podcast out on Buzzsprout which then sends it out to Apple Podcasts and Spotify and all sorts of places.

[00:04:29] Yeah. But we'd made the decision that we were going to put all podcasts on YouTube. So of course we had to video everything. And that took some persuading to get us on video in the first place. And you had a different camera, didn't you? I mean, not the one that we're using now. Yeah. So if you do go and watch that one, we, we look like we're sort of crouched down at the bottom of the screen. It's absolutely hilarious. It's so funny. We look about 12. It is so funny. Nice to look about 12 though, isn't it? It's a long time ago. Uh, so on to what's your first choice? My [00:05:00] first choice was one of the episodes that we did with Tor Spence, Victoria Spence, who is a specialist speech and language therapist.

[00:05:10] And in this episode we were talking about acid reflux, which I have to say is a big favorite topic of mine. Oh, can I just say the two episodes with Tor Spence were on YouTube the most popular episodes by far. Ooh, yes. okay, so this excerpt is June, 2022, season five, episode four, acid reflux with Tor Spence

[00:05:34] I've got a bit of personal stuff to share, which I did warn you about, or which is I first found out that I had acid reflux because what used to happen was I'd start to drop off at night when you first begin to drift off, and then I'd have this weird dry cough, and I remember saying to Jeremy, oh, I feel, have I got asthma or something?

[00:05:53] What's going on? I'd have this little cough, then I'd drop off again. Then it would happen again. And [00:06:00] eventually, of course, I'd go to sleep. Now across time what happened was I got a, you know, a full on LPR event, which is I woke up feeling like I'd got a swarm of bees in my larynx. Hmm. It's so painful when that you get this spurt of acid, and of course you are in danger of choking.

[00:06:21] And it's really unpleasant. And that's when I first realized, oh my goodness, I didn't know acid reflux could do that. And then I started reading about the different types of acid reflux, the lower esophagal sphincter and the upper. And would you like to talk more about that? 'cause many singers, dunno the difference.

[00:06:41] Well, any professional voice user. Mm-hmm. To be honest. And they also have some very weird ideas about what to do about it, including. Things that introduce acid into the larynx because they've been told you, your stomach obviously isn't making enough acid True, so [00:07:00] therefore you need lemon juice. Mm.

[00:07:03] Interesting. Yeah. Lovely, lovely little, yeah, little rabbit hole. So gastroesophageal reflux is when stomach acid flows back into the esophagus connect, which connects your mouth and your stomach, so that backwash irritates the lining of the esophagus. And that causes quite typical symptoms of heartburn, indigestion, chest pain, which is quite different sometimes to the symptoms that people get when they get.

[00:07:33] So Laryngopharyngeal reflux comes up to the top of the esophagus. Now that can be silent. So you Gillyanne, it sounds like you had very clear symptoms at night. Particularly a lot of people we, we term call it silent reflux because it's not what people are expecting of reflux. People are thinking, oh, I don't have any heartburn or indigestion.

[00:07:53] It can't be reflux yet. They're waking up at. They're being woken up in the night by a cough. They've got sticky [00:08:00] throat and sticky mucus around that part in the morning and they're having to cough. Their voice is fluctuating. They're noticing a cough or having to throat clear a lot. And then they end up coming to see ENT, who might have a look at the larynx and either say, oh no, it all looks absolutely fine, or No, there is some inflammation.

[00:08:17] And then what do you do? Um, and it's a difficult thing. There's no sort of blanket. Treatment or advice that we can give that suits everyone. It has to be holistic and we have to take a really detailed history and work out what is in this person's medical history, lifestyle, even the sort of psychosocial elements of it, and what could be exacerbating reflux and what other causes of inflammation or cough at night that there could be as well.

[00:08:47] So. When it comes to the treatment of LPR, or we could call it persistent, these persistent throat symptoms, or perhaps some inflammation that someone's got in their larynx lifestyle. [00:09:00] Management very important, and I'll talk through realistic modifications that people can make. So if I'm working with a singer, for example, we'd talk a lot about kind of patterns in, in sort of eating and meal times.

[00:09:16] We'll talk about when someone's eating, perhaps in relation to when they're going to. Bed, we'll talk about even the things, diet, what they're eating that may be specifically triggering the symptoms or, you know, keeping food diaries is sometimes a vital part of that to recognize, uh, the patterns between what they might eat on a, in a certain day or in the evening, and then how their symptoms are.

[00:09:36] So again, it's that awareness, it's that sort of mindfulness of the sort of lifestyle issues that might be contributing to things. And then of course there's the medication. Side of things. So we know now that for the treatment of LPR or persistent throat symptoms caused by laryn pharyngeal reflux, that proton pump inhibitors, there's medications that are used to [00:10:00] suppress acid production.

[00:10:01] They don't work for persistent throat symptoms. There's some really clear evidence now that we, these patients who have historically quite. Being quite blanketly prescribed PPIs when they've presented to primary care with such symptoms. We don't wanna do that anymore. We really wanna move away from that because we know they don't work for throat symptoms.

[00:10:24] So, interesting to, I knew you weren't a fan of PPIs, but I didn't know that evidence base existed. If there are any papers or anything that you want to share with us at the end that you, you've read Yeah.

[00:10:37] Your turn, Jeremy. Okay, so my first choice is What Matters To You? Because so much of the time we talk about Vocal technique, but it goes further than that. So we're talking about your career, your person, your own health.

[00:10:54] And so with this episode, this was about shaping your [00:11:00] career and making sure that you find time to fit in the things that really matter to you because your work, your career, your whole life will be so much more interesting and actually so much easier to do if you are doing something that you love.

[00:11:14] So we spent a whole episode on what is it that you love doing. This is season eight, episode four from October 23. What Matters To You?

[00:11:24] Okay, so what do we love? Ah, okay. Jeremy, why don't you start? You, I know love working with performers. Absolutely. I've been doing it for more than 40 years now, which makes me sound horribly old. Uh, more than 40 years I've been working with performers and I absolutely love it. I trained, I. A, a collaborative pianist.

[00:11:48] And in fact, I was collaborative pianist by nature as well as by training. Mm-hmm. And I basically had a portfolio career working all the way around collaborative piano in [00:12:00] various forms and various guise. And I've always loved working with other people. I love working with performers. I love working with energy.

[00:12:08] I like helping people find the best in themselves while I'm playing. And it's one of the things that I do when I'm performing. I actually use the piano part that I'm playing to support, to guide, to lead, to follow, to do all sorts of things. And don't you use it as well? 'cause I mean obviously you play for me sometimes to clarify what it is that the performer wants.

[00:12:29] Oh, absolutely. And, and also. What the music wants it. It's kind of a combination of the two, isn't it? And this thing of clarity is really important to you, isn't it? As a coach, I love, I love clarification. Mm-hmm. I love helping people work out what it is that they want to do or to be, it's one of my favorite things.

[00:12:47] I have a load of favorite things, but that's one of my favorite. Um, okay. So, uh, enough about that. What, and enough about you. Yes. Okay. What matters to you? This is quite interesting and it's more than one thing [00:13:00] as I know it is for you too. I need to work with voices. Yeah. Voices are absolutely what float my boat, make my heart sing.

[00:13:10] They always have done and it's the individual voice that interests me and where we are at this point in our business development and, and also in my career, working with individual voices. It doesn't need to be my primary income source. Mm-hmm. After all, I have been doing it for 45 years, but I think if I stopped doing it all together, I might lose touch with what it is that I am as a teacher and a musician.

[00:13:37] Mm. And then maybe I might not be as good at advising other people, other teachers as I want to be. We have come to know each other's. Things that matter, and we support each other in those things. And I've known for a very long time that Gillyanne needs to work one-to-one with voices, whether it's all the time or occasionally.

[00:13:58] Mm-hmm. It doesn't matter.

[00:13:59] [00:14:00] Do you know what that calls to mind for me right now as it happens. I saw an Instagram post this morning from James Sills, and he was quoting someone who said, don't follow your passion. It will kill it for you. That's quite interesting. Yeah. Seriously, I think follow your interest now that may be coming from me as an A DHD person where I'm always searching for the dopamine. So the thing is that if I'm doing something I'm interested in, I'm able to do it for a lot longer. So, um. I understand about following your passion because once you do, it becomes your job, it becomes your work, and you can lose interest.

[00:14:41] But I still think that you need in your life, the things that you love doing. Yep. And I hasten to say that James Sills was definitely not in agreement with that. So what's your next choice? Oh. One of the episodes that we did with my client, Kate Bassett, [00:15:00] who generously came online to talk about her experience of having had a Vocal injury. Specifically a Vocal fold hemorrhage while she was on a cruise, on tour, working, and about her journey with that experience and her journey with me towards returning to Vocal health. And of course this whole thing about helping singers return back to work is one of my very strong interests. Yeah. Partly because as a young singer, I also had a voice problem. It was a very powerful episode. And also Kate is very open about not just the injury, but the recovery and, um, we need to say that she is singing so well at the moment.

[00:15:43] Mm-hmm. So this is, uh, April, 2023. And it is, and I've actually forgotten to look this up. I have a, I have a whole spreadsheet of our episodes and yeah, what did we call this one? We called [00:16:00] it

[00:16:00] Vocal surgery and beyond a singer's experience, and it was season seven, episode five. Here's the excerpt.

[00:16:08] So tell us about that. Just give us a little bit of background about the event. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Um, I was on tour at the time. Um, I was doing an ABBA show that was touring most of Europe, so Germany primarily. Um, so I was out somewhere in, in far eastern Germany, in a dusty theater. Um, and we were coming to the end of the show, so we were probably two thirds of the way through.

[00:16:32] And I went off stage to do a quick change. And, um, during the quick change, something made me cough heavily. I wasn't sick, it came outta the blue. Um, it was a sort of a really heavy, hard cough, something that really made impact. Um, and I. Hairspray and all, all of the things that you're doing when you get changed, bending over, sort of zipping up your boots.

[00:16:58] Um, I didn't think anything of [00:17:00] it. Um, I went back on stage to announce something, you know, uh, the next song you sort of high energy announcement going into that last part of the show. And so it was as though Mute had someone had muted my voice. It wasn't, it was, there was nothing there. There wasn't even any sort of.

[00:17:21] Contact or gravity sound, it was just an instant sudden complete voice loss on stage that that's what happened. Terrify. And that's so interesting because what subsequently happened when you got in touch with me was that neither of us really realized that that was the core event. Yeah. 'cause when you were on tour, you did what most people do, which is.

[00:17:50] You kind of adjusted and you tried to keep going and it was only after a little bit of that, that you got in touch and said, my voice doesn't [00:18:00] feel quite right. And I think you emailed me. 'cause you know, we, we, um, weren't able to even speak at that point. Yeah. You know, the connections. Tell me more about what you did, if you don't mind, in terms of.

[00:18:14] You know, what did you do over the next few days? 'cause I think this is so important for the listeners to hear. Yeah. Um, right. So I think there was maybe two or three shows left on that particular leg of the tour. Um, and, um, you know, I, I tried to conserve my energy, um, you know, just be. I guess use my voice less in the day to day.

[00:18:38] Um, you very helpfully sent me some videos of some SOVT, uh, for, you know, a tired voice. Um, so I was using a bubble, you know, straw bubbling. Um, and sort of, I guess just trying to sort of gently get to the end of that particular leg of the tour. Um, and admittedly, amid. [00:19:00] All of that, probably behaving a little bit chaotically to try and just get through those last shows.

[00:19:06] Um, which in hindsight obviously was a very bad idea. How long was it from when your voice cut out completely before you could use your voice at all again? Um, so after. The initial cutout. Um, I remember, um, I, I mean just for some context, I was playing Frida, um, in the show, which is actually a lower, a sort of a lower range than my voice naturally sits at.

[00:19:35] But, um, so, uh, I remember sort of, um. It did come back, but it was very, very low. Um, and it wasn't, you know, I was struggling. Um, so I had this sort of low voice, so I think I was sort of just singing down the octave initially in that, that, in at the, sort of the initial moment where it happened. Um, and then after that point I was, I guess just, just maintaining and I was [00:20:00] able to sing the show, but obviously my voice sounded.

[00:20:03] Husky tired, very craggy. Um, you know, all the things that you would expect in both speaking and singing voice. Um, but yeah, so I, I didn't sort of, um, the, the, that complete voice loss was sort of a moment momentary. And then, um, yeah, and then obviously I had a, a bad voice quality going forward. Okay, so that's interesting, and again, very super interesting for singers and teachers to know.

[00:20:31] Yeah. Which is because you and I weren't able to speak because of the communication issues at the time with you being on tour. I wasn't able to ask you and listen to your speaking voice quality. So what you're saying, your speaking voice quality wasn't normal, not just that your singing voice was low and gravelly compared with normal.

[00:20:53] Is that right? That's right. Yeah. Yeah. I do think, you know, my speaking voice, I mean, this is [00:21:00] something, we'll, we can come to you later, but my speaking voice used to get more tired, um, than it does now as a result of, you know, everything we'll talk about coming out of the injury. But, um. I, I guess it was, it was more than your, your, your average sort of what you would expect to have Vocal tiredness on, you know, on a busy tour.

[00:21:18] It was more than that. You didn't realize the significance of the coughing and the voice disappearing immediately, and so you did what every performer tries to do, which was you carried on. Yep. Yeah. Yeah. At what point did you realize you needed help and that this was not going to go away? Mm. Um, it was when I came home and I planned, planned some rest time in, so I had about nine days at home.

[00:21:48] Um, and in that nine days, um, I had one very small gig that I struggled to cover, which wasn't, it was very low key, sort of low pressure. And I had a [00:22:00] recording session, um, and. My voice was unpredictable. It was doing things that it had never done before. Um, you know, simple things. Sirening, missing big, big parts of your range.

[00:22:13] Um, and it not being just a little crunchiness, it was, you know, something that was impossible to ignore. Um, pitch as well was the other unpredictable, unpredictable thing. Um. I, I don't have an issue with pitch. So, you know, sometimes things were kind of coming out, you'd send it one way and it would sort of go in a different direction.

[00:22:32] And I was thinking, what's happening? You know, this is strange, strange happenings. And these are very, I mean, very clear signs and just are very unsettling. They're important, uh, signals. And that's when you were able to get in touch with me and we said that you needed to go to a voice clinic.

[00:22:52] So something I'd just like to say following on from that, what you can hear is that voice injury can happen to anyone. Mm-hmm. And yet so many [00:23:00] singers go through this sense of self shame. And this doesn't happen in the sports industry. And if you'd like to hear more about Kate's journey and another singer that I worked with, in recovery from Vocal injury, you might like to join our Teacher Accreditation Programme because one of the self-guided units, it's specifically about that and you can hear a lot more detail about what I did with these two clients, Kate Bassett and Jacob William. 

[00:23:29] Okay, my turn, right. So my second choice, this came about because we had a review put on apple Podcasts from Sarah Brown, LDN. She gave it five stars and she said about the whole podcast, in fact, the whole series, the topics are really great and interesting as a voice coach to listen to. I particularly like the one about appreciating our own success, and this was the one Season 11, episode four from March, 2025, that's this year [00:24:00] called Success Amnesia. Are you forgetting your own success? This came about because I'd read about it. I wrote a blog about it because I recognized it. And then you read the blog and said, we have to talk about this. Mm-hmm. We have to actually dive a lot deeper into it. And it was something I didn't even realize I had until I read about it.

[00:24:19] And it's one of those oh moments where you recognize something so clearly and you go, oh, I didn't know that was a thing, but I also didn't know the effects that it had.

[00:24:31] Success Amnesia is, it's just a really interesting thing. It's when you have achieved something, but it doesn't mean anything to you. You don't even notice that you've achieved it. It's, oh, yeah, okay. Another box ticked and onto the next thing, so there's no awareness of the sort of success that you've done. And also there's no celebration of it. And I will say my life coach, and I've had him for a number of years, mm-hmm. Has been on at me to do all sorts of things like this. I didn't know it that it came under this [00:25:00] banner, but I know in the blog I talk about a very large poster, which in fact I'm looking at right now, which is just above my desk.

[00:25:07] I am not the sort of person that would put a poster up. I had to be persuaded to do this. But I did a masterclass in University of Chichester and they did an amazing poster of me doing the masterclass, and I just saw it on boards when I was there and I went, Ooh, can I take that home with me? So it's up on the wall.

[00:25:24] So every time I'm working, every so often I will look up and I'll go, yeah, you did that masterclass and that was good. Basically, you are the level that can be invited to do masterclasses. Well done. And it's just a sort of prod for me to remember. Where I am, what I've done and some of the successful things.

[00:25:44] Yeah. And actually one of the reasons why we wanted to talk about it in this podcast is because it also happens to me, and it happened to me recently, I dunno if you remember, but I was putting together a proposal for a book, an [00:26:00] abstract, and it was hard work. And the way that I process is very different from Jeremy.

[00:26:07] Yep. I will get germs of ideas, little seeds of ideas, and then I start to look at all the different seeds, and at a certain point they start to make a pattern. For me, it's a bit like working with a jigsaw. I hate jigsaws, by the way, but that's the idea. I'll come in piece by piece and then I think, oh, this is the whole picture.

[00:26:31] And I absolutely love seeing the connectedness of things. And then everything will drop into place for me and this is exactly what happened. Yeah, because I allowed myself some sifting time before I finalized this proposal, and I was absolutely thrilled to bits with myself and. Then I said to Jeremy, and do you know what I've just remembered?

[00:26:56] I had this lovely email from a [00:27:00] research colleague back in the summer who said that they'd come across my initial chapter for the Oxford Handbook of Singing called Structure and Function of Singing Voice, I think, and they said such nice things about it. And I'd forgotten that and I actually went and got the email out and I read it aloud to Jeremy.

[00:27:20] I was gonna say, I don't think you even told me that email had arrived the first time. No, it had just 'cause, uh, so many things were going on in my mind at that point. And I don't know if you've spoken about this, but over the last two years, we almost got to the. We did get to the point where we were in burnout.

[00:27:34] For those of you who might not know, one of the symptoms of burnout can be that you develop, hopefully temporary acquired A DHD. So I started to notice some of the things. That Jeremy normally gets that I was getting, and that was one of the main, and, and also on that topic, success amnesia is one of the things that contributes to burnout because you have no concept or no [00:28:00] awareness that you are good at what you do.

[00:28:02] You just assume that you are bad at what you do and that nothing has ever worked. And I think obviously we're gonna talk about it for, for musical music professionals. But in terms of you, Jeremy, because you have at least a hundred ideas a day minimum. And of these, some of them will actually be pretty bloody brilliant.

[00:28:25] Yeah. Now whether one follows through on those ideas, for instance, in a business situation is another matter altogether. And that's one of the things we've had to learn to deal with. But because you are onto the next idea, you simply haven't realized what you did before. So Jeremy thinking to the blog? Yeah. Can you tell us more about how you see success amnesia in the people you work with?

[00:28:50] The music professionals, the singing voice professionals. The performers. The first thing that I notice is the whole moving on. [00:29:00] Mentality, which is, yeah, that wasn't anything special. What's next? And there's no pause, there's no moment where you go, I did really well, or That worked, or, I'm so pleased that happened, or I'm sure this can lead to something really interesting.

[00:29:15] There's no pause moment because it doesn't occur to people that there is something there to celebrate. That's the first thing. Can I just read this? 'cause I actually really like this paragraph. Yes. Success Amnesia happens when you consistently forget your own achievements. Instead of sitting in the glow of what you've accomplished, your brain zooms straight to what's next?

[00:29:38] What didn't go perfectly? Hello? Professional musicians. Yeah, what don't I feel there yet? Wherever there is. Why? Sorry, why don't I feel there yet as if there's some kind of arrival point. This is something I suffer from as well. Oh yeah, me too. For years. It's like, why haven't I made it? And the question is made it [00:30:00] doing what?

[00:30:00] Being what? Arriving where It's really, it's just a, it's a fascinating thing when you realize that it is a thing. Yeah. And. We as musicians operate in high stakes, high emotional environments, and we do tend to be constantly seeking approval, teachers, audition panels, audiences, casting directors, and hello social media.

[00:30:26] Yes, absolutely. Yeah. So why does it become a problem, Jeremy? Because there's no moment of satisfaction because you are constantly on the move. There's no settling anywhere, and oddly enough, it's because you don't acknowledge your own skills and sometimes even your own level. And so there's a sort of sense of dissatisfaction that runs through everything that is not good for you to keep that sense of dissatisfaction going.

[00:30:52] So it's gonna drain enjoyment. Yes. Burns. And that's going to drain your confidence. Yeah. Burnout. The whole burnout thing. Yeah. [00:31:00] Which is, and impostor syndrome. Mm. And impostor syndrome is a big thing for artists in general. Any kind of artist, anyone working in the arts because. Part of it, part of the creativity is I, it's almost like I need to create something, but I dunno if it's any good.

[00:31:16] And then you are constantly looking outside for people's opinions. And the impostor syndrome is people, if you like, I. Aren't telling me that I'm any good. Sometimes they don't have time to tell you. They will tell you a year later. Yep. Thank you for telling me. Can you do it? At the time, it's much nicer.

[00:31:34] And also the whole, because of that, you disconnect from what you do. You disconnect from the joy of what you are doing and the passion of what you are doing. And again, for artists, it's very important that we can connect with that level of joy and that passion. Mm-hmm. It's quite a big thing. It has a lot of knock on effects.

[00:31:50] I think it is very easy, as Jeremy said, for people in our profession to forget how good we were. I was watching a video of a [00:32:00] masterclass we did a few years ago. Do you, do you mind if I talk just briefly about this?

[00:32:04] No, you can. Um. And it's so nice to sort of sometimes watch yourself again, not in an egotistical way. And afterwards I came to Jeremy and um, I said, fuck, we were good. I mean, really, I needed to see that at that point in time, which is. We did such a great job. Yeah. Um, and it was quite inspiring. I felt inspired by what we did.

[00:32:31] You genuinely, yeah, you forget the things that you did because it's onto the next, onto the next. Onto the next. Yeah. But you are right. And because we live in a time now where things are videoed and recorded. Mm-hmm. You can go back and look at yourself. Just as we did. We went back to episode one. We even looked at what we were wearing and we're wearing things that are very similar.

[00:32:50] Oh no. But we've upgraded. We have upgraded. Yeah. Okay, so what is your next one? My turn. Yes. So this is series nine, [00:33:00] episode nine with the guest, uh, Guro von Germeten called the Omnivorous Voice. Navigating taste. I don't think I've got the whole title there, but, uh, I'm, if you find the episode, you'll be able to read that.

[00:33:17] Now, I came across Guro because I was acting as an opponent in her PhD, so I had to read that, and I was absolutely fascinated by the way that she unpacked the notion of taste. In this episode we talk about how important it is for us as trainers, uh, and also as listeners, but particularly as trainers, to understand our taste. To understand where we're located in our tastes, and to recognize those as a kind of filter, while at the same time celebrating what those tastes bring to you. I think even recognizing that you have a filter at all is quite [00:34:00] something. Mm. I think it was one of the most fascinating things that she talked about was. Recognizing and realizing that we all have filters and they come from our experience and they come from our background and they come from the, the way that we were brought up and also the things that people have said to us in the past.

[00:34:16] Yes. And the excerpt that we've chosen is a little story Yes. Of what someone said to her in the past. And we're gonna say no more about it.

[00:34:24] I also want to say something about my favorite line from your PhD because you, you talked a lot about your own background, you know, the, the position of the researcher liked your PhD particularly liked in this speech that particularly that's exactly what you just been talking about. I laughed out loud and highlighted it.

[00:34:42] I said, I discovered that the voice is so powerful that it could awaken the dead. Yeah, I was, I was. I was talking about my background and I was talking about two statements that I heard early in my own musical life that really [00:35:00] not only did sort of influence and form the work of my PhD, but I had influenced my own singing, uh, and playing.

[00:35:09] I was also a piano player, um, in, in so many years, and not in a positive way. And, and the first one, what was, what we talked about a bit earlier, this, this thing of, you know, you're such a classical singer, you have such a classical voice. You are, you, you would be perfect for Mozart or Rini, but you would never be able to do pop music with that instrument.

[00:35:31] And, and this idea that I was born not only. Either you are born to be a singer or you're not born to be a singer in a way. And that you are sort of, uh, not only that, but that you are born to become a specific type of singer. Mm-hmm. Like suitable to one fixed repertoire. And that was like determined before you even were born, you know, this sort of idea.

[00:35:53] Uh, and that was really like conflicting for me because I had this secret dream of doing [00:36:00] accordion and sounding crazy and. I was a rebel since I was little, but I was so trained and also within my musical, um, context. To be quiet, sing high, pitch, being soft, not use what I call any like metal to the sound or like raw sounds.

[00:36:23] Not very much volume, no chest voice, only head voice or neutral as I call it. And very specific. Uh, and, and it was so conflicting that I had all these other things in me, but I got this. Serve this idea that that was not something I was born into. So that was the one statement that sort of, um, has inhibited me, but also has expanded into this research and, and trying to break those ideas about, yeah, I, I really want to talk about this.

[00:36:56] I really wanna talk about this. You should let her tell you about the other statement. And then, [00:37:00] yeah, sorry. Yeah. No. And then the, and then the second statement was this. That, that was actually my, my piano playing, piano playing days where I was, uh, playing, uh, Turkish marsh or a laka, uh, from. Mm-hmm. Um, and I remember an authority person, a composer that I really looked up to, came to me and said, if you keep on playing Mozart that way, he will turn in his grave.

[00:37:28] And that sort of, uh, statement was like, uh, I mean, for a 10-year-old loving to play the 12 year playing the piano 10, yeah. It was, um, yeah, it, it makes me emotional because it has influenced so much about what I thought about music and that it was the standard of music so high that even, you know. Just sitting down at the piano and rehearsing something.

[00:37:56] If you were not perfect, if you were not good enough, if you didn't [00:38:00] understand the true intention or whatever people talk about from the composer, you will sort of ruin the music and you will offend the people that wrote it and you will. You know that, that you are sort of a slave or sort of a, you have to obey some sort of idea.

[00:38:17] Otherwise you are. Uh, pissing on art back. Yes. Yes. You must be obedient. You must follow the rules. Yeah. And, um, it's never, ever good enough. And, uh, yes. Don't piss on art. Okay. Yeah. Good for you. Now I have to. Good for you. Yeah. Now I have to say something because that, that I feel so strongly about this. Um, first of all.

[00:38:41] What a shit. Yeah, because it's completely, it's actually, it's, I very rarely say this, but it's a wrong thing to say because it's based on nothing. Mm-hmm. It's like, that's his taste. It's not Mozart's taste because Mozart can't tell you. Mm-hmm. And the second thing is, you know, you're, you are playing a piece [00:39:00] by Mozart and given what we know about Mozart's personality, I would imagine he'd love it.

[00:39:05] He'd be thrilled to bits. He, he would find it funny. He would, you know. The, the last thing he would say is, that's not right. Mm-hmm.

[00:39:13] So powerful. I got so annoyed with that. That was my favorite moment in the podcast and it actually, it was my favorite line from the PhD. We had such a laugh about that. So, you know, I think the take home from this is that to realize that what you think of as Vocal expertise, either as a singer or a teacher, is very much shaped by taste, and that that is influenced by your listening history, your cultural history, the way you've been educated, the music you like, and so forth. It's so good to investigate your own taste. Yes. 

[00:39:50] Okay. My final one. My final choice. We have interviewed so many amazing people, and there are [00:40:00] many of them that we've had connections with. I don't think I felt more similarity with anyone in just the way that they think, as with Claire Underwood, which was this series.

[00:40:12] And in fact, in this series, we've interviewed Mike Ruckles. We've interviewed Kevin Michael Cripps, Cripps. Um, we've interviewed Claire and all three of them because they're all Vocal coaches. I, first of all, feel a, a lot of sympathy and a lot of empathy with them, but Claire, I think we'd met only twice before that interview?

[00:40:35] And yet everything that she said, I just kept thinking, yes, yes, yes. This is exactly what I think. This is exactly how I see things. So, um, so many resonances, so many yes moments, and here is one of them. Claire and I are having a discussion.

[00:40:49] When I started working in this field, actually, I, I would say even, even before then, when I was teaching kids, it became really obvious that the. [00:41:00] The Vocal technique stuff is like, I always describe that as, as the car mechanic bit. I can lift up the bonnet. Mm-hmm. I can tweak a few things and, and we can get the edge in running really smoothly.

[00:41:09] That that's fine. Sometimes there are challenges, but fine, we can do that. But actually I've never quite settled on a percentage, but I think it could be as high as 80% of the job is making somebody feel comfortable in the room because if you're not comfortable. That instrument doesn't work. It just doesn't work, and you can't get the freedom from it that you're looking for.

[00:41:28] And so I, I, within a couple of years of teaching, realized that more of what I was doing was psychology than I. And, and, and safe spacing if you like. There are, of course, there are technical challenges. Of course, somebody's gonna come into a role where they've gotta sing satisfied or whatever. We've got a belt right up to the top.

[00:41:46] Uh, of course there are gonna be challenges. And a big chunk of my job is about finding Vocal safety in an exciting performance that I see as one of the paramount things that I need to keep them vocally healthy if I [00:42:00] possibly can, but. The much larger part of the job is them finding themselves in the role and finding the role in themselves and knowing how that fits in.

[00:42:12] And quite often you've got somebody coming from completely different musical world into a production. And so there's a whole style change going on. There's, there's an awful lot of kind of intricate nuances in there that we have to tease out somehow. And it. All begins with the person. You, you can't do it any other way.

[00:42:32] I can't do it any other way. Even if you take what you might consider to be template sounds. Mm. Like everybody needs to belt, everybody needs to sing legit, everybody needs to, to what? Whatever it is that people label the sounds with. There is still something that's, that keeps getting missed out, which is, I want your version of that sound.

[00:42:52] I want your voice making that sound. Yes. I don't want somebody else's voice No pasted onto you because the teacher has [00:43:00] said, oh, that's not belting. 'cause it doesn't sound like me. Mm-hmm. Right. Hate that. Yeah. So this, to start with, there are parameters within each individual quote, template sound. Mm. Where somebody who has a light bright voice is not gonna sound the same, doing exactly the same technique as somebody with a heavy, dark voice.

[00:43:18] Absolutely. It's honestly, it's a dur moment, honestly. It's totally a, it cut cuts it, it gets, it gets me riled in terms of individuality of voice. Mm. Because, uh, exactly what you've been describing. Sorry, I interrupted you. It's alright. It's a good interruption, I think. Um, hope so. Which is that, you know, we hear these sounds and of course, you know, the, the recording cast recordings are thrown at us all the time.

[00:43:46] They don't necessarily represent what's done on stage and that's a whole other issue. And then. An individual is aiming to produce that sound outcome without a deep enough understanding of what [00:44:00] that sound might sound like and feel like in their own voice. The, the first thing that I think in that situation is this person was cast, therefore they are a fit for the role.

[00:44:14] Absolutely. That's, yeah, that's the one of the most important things that you can say. Mm-hmm. To that, to the person because it's like you were cast. Yeah. So, you know, people have confidence in you and they have faith in you. Yeah. So that's where you start. Yeah. And but you've just said so important that you take somebody back to what they already do.

[00:44:32] Yes. And go, how do we get from there? Yes. To where you need to be, not how are we gonna add something on to where you already are. Yeah. In this mastro of emotion, we can't add something onto it. No. 'cause it's just gonna be put on top of a mastro of emotion that's not gonna work. Yeah. So you take people back to where they were because actually where they were is where they were when they were cast and that's how they got the job.

[00:44:54] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And they may now be being asked to do quite different things. I, [00:45:00] I think sometimes there's a difficulty in their perception of why they were cast. Versus why they actually were cast. Nice. So they're, they're trying to hold onto something that they think is the very reason they're there, and that if they drop, they'll lose the job.

[00:45:15] And actually, sometimes my job is, is translating. And I don't always know, I, I, I wasn't there in the audition room. I try a really hard not to be there in the audition room. 'cause my anxiety levels go sky high. But. Trying, trying to translate what's the essence? What, what do I see that I understand? Because I've watched a lot of casts of this show that that made them go, okay, here's that.

[00:45:42] It's not my job to, to decide what it is, but it is my job to help the performer find that in themselves and, and let them see that the thing that they're being asked to let go isn't, isn't the essence of them. So it's really important. Certainly to me it's really important that, [00:46:00] that the narrative and the characters and the emotion comes slightly ahead of the musical product that isn't, that isn't to say we're gonna drop the musical ball.

[00:46:10] It's too important, but it, but it's just slightly ahead of that. Yeah, it's very interesting. A hundred percent with you. What's also fascinating is since in, in a, a show like Cabaret, the story is so strong and it's so important and it's so emotional. If you did sing one of the songs as a Vocal showpiece, it wouldn't fit the show.

[00:46:30] That's the problem. That's, that's exactly it. Yeah. And the audience would then come outta the story and outta the plot and sit back and go, oh, didn't that sound lovely? Yeah. Yeah. And where I was gonna go with that was, so the singing isn't the goal exactly. S that the. The singing is the vehicle. Yeah.

[00:46:46] Mm-hmm. Listen up. Musical theater singers. This is so important. Sorry. I know you've worked for years and years on your technique, but the singing isn't the goal. Singing is, it's all about the experience that you, with your [00:47:00] colleagues together with the music and the whole stage performance, our creating and sharing with the audience in the room.

[00:47:06] Mm-hmm. That is, that's the goal. Yes. Yes. Yeah, absolutely.

[00:47:09] You two were having a ball, weren't you? We were. We were. Yeah. So there you go. Those are our six best bits. Mm-hmm. Those are the ones that we love. Uh, which ones do you love? 'cause we want to hear, absolutely. We want to hear which, which episodes really hit for you. Or even just single lines from something, 'cause so often you just hear a single line and you go, oh, yes, yes, I get that. Have you had a little resonance moment or a light bulb moment? Yeah. Let's do you share it with us? Absolutely. We like to get a little bit of reflection back, don't we? We do. Yes, we do. It helps us remember our success.

[00:47:45] Mm-hmm. So we will see you next time. We have another guest coming in this series, but we're not gonna say who it is. Thank you everybody for your loyalty and for continuing to listen. Here's to another five years. [00:48:00] Mm-hmm. Bye.