Communication, Connection & Creative Coaching - The best bits of This Is A Voice Season 12

🎙 This Is A Voice with Jeremy Fisher and Dr Gillyanne Kayes
The podcast where we get vocal about voice.

This special finale (Season 12 Episode 12) brings together unforgettable moments from across Season 12, featuring bite-sized excerpts from powerful conversations about singing, voice, performance, creativity, identity, burnout, boundaries, connection and what it really means to use your voice.

From the emotional reveal of “The Secret Singer” to conversations about vocal health, creative resilience, performance psychology and human connection, this episode is a showcase of the insight, honesty and expertise that made Season 12 so special.

Featured topics include:
• Singing and identity
• Vocal coaching and performance
• Burnout and creative wellbeing
• Boundaries and resilience
• Voice science and artistry
• Communication and connection
• The emotional power of singing

Whether you're a singer, vocal coach, teacher, performer, creative professional or simply fascinated by the human voice, this episode is the perfect introduction to the podcast.


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Transcript

0:11

This is A Voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This is A Voice. Secret singer, burnout, boundaries, and connection. Hello, and welcome to This Is A Voice, season 12, episode 12. The podcast where we get vocal about voice. I'm Jeremy Fisher. And I'm Dr. Gillyanne Kayes. And this episode is the best of season 12. Ah. We've chosen a few little excerpts from episodes, and these are our favourite bits. Mm. We're actually gonna start with the episode which has become my favorite episode of all time, and that's episode five, The Secret Singer. Oh, bless you for that. How wonderful. Now, if you haven't listened to episode five, The Secret Singer, yet, then we're gonna play the opening of the episode, and this is where you find out who the secret singer is. I can't tell you how excited I am. We have such a special guest with us today, and we're actually gonna start with a recording of said special guest. So this is a little excerpt from one of the Handel German Arias. Meine Seele hört im Sehen. Okay. Okay, and can I introduce you two? Gillyanne Kayes aged 26. Do you know what? I almost had a handkerchief, a tearing alert there. I was so excited about this because, and I have to tell you, Gillyanne and I have been married 25 years. This is the first time that I've actually heard Gillyanne sing in a recital, and she's never played me recordings really before this. There's a story. Yeah, there's definitely a story. And friends, we are gonna go deep. Yep. I could well tear up again. Yep. Do you know, I had so many people get in touch with me after this particular episode. I mean, it was obviously very moving to record it itself, but hearing other people's stories and how other people connected with the experience that I shared, that was really special. And in fact, that was only half the story, because Gillyanne, in episode six, Singer Interrupted, continued the story, and we're just gonna play a little excerpt from that too. Okay. There's two things. The first one is you glossed over something really quite magnificently. Congratulations. I'm gonna pull it out, which is, you said mid thirties, which means that's seven years without singing. Mm-hmm. That's a long time, particularly at that age and at that point of development of a singer. That's a long time. So there was some stuff going on there. There was, and as I said before, and I've always said it was being a teacher that kept me going, first of all, because. I knew exactly what it was like to feel you couldn't make a sound and for anyone out there who listens, 'cause I've had this and I think other teachers have had it. Oh, she had a voice problem, she shouldn't be teaching. Exact opposite. Mm-hmm. If you are a voice problem survivor mm-hmm. You are gonna be a great teacher. Mm-hmm. Okay. Or you can be a great teacher. I was gonna say. Okay. Yeah. So that was number one. Number two, yes. You talked about a happy ending. Yes. So did the happy ending involve getting back to performing? There's a step along the way. Okay. Which was, yes, I did get back, I did do some performing pretty much low stakes stuff, but that was fine. And I got to the point where I'd done a lunchtime concert at some venue or other, and I was pleased with what I did. It was lovely. I had a nice frock and I enjoyed the repertoire that I sang, and I think I did a couple more. And then I thought, do you know what? I'm not really enjoying this. I do like singing. I do like rehearsing, but it's spoiling my day. Burnout We never thought we'd start talking about burnout, but episode one of season 12, we started talking about our own experience of burnout. We were on holiday last year. Somebody very kindly lent us their lodge that we stayed in for two weeks. Yeah. And we discovered that we were in burnout and had been for some time. And Jeremy, I think it was only after the holiday that we realized something wasn't right. We still weren't rested, were we? No. Even after two weeks of doing nothing. No, not at all. And it's a, it was a beautiful venue and a- all the rest of it, and we, we did do some nice things. We did not come away refreshed. We did not come away with new creative ideas. And to be honest, I think in some ways certainly what you were going through was, I love this description of burnout, feeling fatigued in every cell of your being. Absolutely. I remember you just sitting up in bed most of the day before you could be levered out to go, to go and enjoy the sunshine. Yeah. And then by the way, I was just levered out onto the bench- Yeah, yeah ... in the garden to read a book. That was it. And you weren't even reading. No. And neither of us even had the energy to watch the amazing solar events that were going on at that time of year. It was like, "No, let's go to bed.

It's 11: 7:26

00." Not getting up at midnight to watch the skies at night. Yes. So we're wondering whether this sounds familiar to people listening, because we think burnout is really underrated, undervalued. It's just not very well known. I don't think it's seen enough in our profession. I don't think it's recognized. I think a lot of people live with it. I went running down various rabbit holes this morning, having a look at burnout scales and articles about burnout, and there's a huge amount of material, surprise, in the medical and caring professions about burnout, certain burnout scales, and there's also a lot of material in the business world, and there's some material in the teaching world. But I think in particular for those of us who are more freelance voice professionals and small business owners, we really need to know some of the markers of burnout, and just to begin to care for ourselves and each other more. And we got one of our teachers, Franka van Essen, to talk about her experience of burnout because she always says that when she started working with us, she was recovering from burnout. And she talked about the boundary between burnout and boredom, and how that can be a very narrow space. So here's Franka on different types of burnout. So a burnout could start in different ways. You have people like me who are very much coming from that fight-flight zone. There are also people who are more prone to that immobilization part, where they feel like they're being overridden by a truck and can't get out of bed anymore, and that's the start of their burnout. Usually, it's one of those two types, the way in which it started, and for me, it was that more fight-flight start of, of having a very restless body and very tired at the same time. So being in a burnout as creative is very challenging because at the same time, actually, I was in a boreout. Now, this may sound really weird, but the time when I started following your, actually this podcast, this very podcast, and starting to follow your courses, was actually the time that I was in this burnout, and at the same time, I desperate- desperately needed something new to, to have my mind, have my head, um, do. And I see this a lot with neurodivergent people, that they, on the one hand, need to be very careful with their energy and their sensitive system to not get into overload, but on the other hand, they need a lot of challenge for the same system to keep them going and to feed their endless curiosity for new knowledge and new ex- exploration, really. Now, thinking about being a singing teacher and a creative, there are a few th- more things are going on that are specific for our kind of professions, I think. Most of us have portfolio careers, so we do different things alongside each other, partly because we love to do it, but partly also because the business is, is shaped like this, that we have small contracts or small jobs next to each other. This also means that we have to be very, mm, flexible and jump from o- one thing to another all the time, and this can be very tiring. It's, it takes a lot of our flexibility. Another thing that could be going on is the starving artist mode. I personally am still struggling with it, the idea that art is not meant to be paid for in, uh, a, in a good way. So I see friends of mine who work in completely different areas of, of profession, and they just bring home these amounts of money every month, and I'm like What the F? I mean, I c- it's weird in a way that I can do something that not many people can do and still get paid for it so lousy. Another thing that I've noticed is that a lot of singing teachers are people who love to help, as coaches and therapists often are. But there is this thing that's called the helper syndrome, where we, in a way, overstep being that helper so that we don't honor our own boundaries anymore, and actually also not the boundaries of our clients, because if we help them too much, they might feel that they can't do it themselves, which is actually not what we want. So I think stepping back sometimes and acknowledging that might feel a bit awkward is a good thing to do because it prevents us from overstepping our own boundaries and overstepping our own energy. So Franka has done two courses for us online on the polyvagal theory and putting it into practice as a singing teacher for yourself and your students. Mm-hmm. And we'll drop links for both of those courses into the show notes. In the next episode, uh, Dr. Ayan Panja kindly allowed us to share extracts from his own podcast on burnout, where he's speaking about it from more of a medical and research perspective. Because it's not just a word that we're bandying around in the community. It's real. It can present in many ways, and common signs of burnout would be feeling tired or drained most of the time. A lot of people feel like that. I realize that feeling overwhelmed or not taking tasks at work seriously where you just don't care if you miss something, doubting yourself or being cynical, feeling detached, all of these things that. Many of us might feel now and again, but if they're persistent and there's more than one of them, then you might be at risk of burnout. And it's also one of those things that colleagues might spot in you. Are you grumpy at work? Are you leaving things undone? Has your performance reduced? Are you alienating yourselves from your colleagues? Are you obviously exhausted? And not performing at work. And the real kicker is that the world we live in now is all about those things. It's constantly about performance, isn't it? And the blurring of lines between your home life and your work life. I mean, what's happened there in the last 10 to 20 years, it's no wonder people are more likely to feel burnt out. All you've gotta do is add into that problems with say, sleep or your relationships, or if you are lonely, or if you've got money worries, who doesn't have those at the moment? And you've got a real recipe for disaster. There are, of course other factors at play. So there are certain personality types who are more prone to burnout, so people who are real empaths, for example, or people who are perfectionists. And if you're both, then again, if you like, the analogy for that would be that if your cup overflows and that's burnout, then that group of people already have a cup that's fairly full. As a recovering perfectionist, and I did write an article on that, I think that really hits home. And we ended up doing yet another episode on burnout. And this was a result of an informal conversation that I had with our colleague, uh, Marisa Lee Naismith, who has her own podcast, A Voice and Beyond. And she talked about her personal experience of burnout and why she felt the need to actually pause her podcast for a while, even though it was hugely successful. It was right at the top of the ratings. It's a powerful conversation. Here's Marisa. There are times where you're in that work mode and you aren't in flow, that you find that you, you get to that point where you know the words aren't coming together, that you are reading something and nothing is sinking in. And you, most of us have been programmed to push through that, those moments. And what I've learned is that is the time to get up. Go for a walk or have a stretch. Go make yourself a cup of tea or a coffee, just mm-hmm. Get away from that project. Yeah. And then come back to it. And then you find you're so much better, you're so much more efficient, and you are talking about space, allowing yourself space. The word grace came to mind. I feel that. We need to give ourselves space, but also we need to allow ourselves the grace. Love that to do that. Yeah. Look, I stopped my podcast last year. Mm-hmm. I put it on pause, we hit a million downloads and you know, it was going great guns. We were top in so many cities and we were at that point where. We're in the top 5% of podcasts globally, and I just went, I can't, I cannot, I'm not finding the joy in this at the moment. I'm so burnt out that it's stressing me out, and it's meant to be something that I love. It's, it's my loved, it's my child. It's my baby here. It's my passion. Yeah, it was a passion project and all of a sudden it became something else on my to-do list, and that's the moment that I went, this is not the time, this is not working out for me right now. And I made the decision when it was at its peak to pull the pin on it, and I wasn't scared. A lot of people would've been scared. Would've thought, wow, what if we never get back to that again? What if we have this break and the audiences don't come back? And I was okay with it because I had learned that my health, my mental, my physical, my emotional health were way more then the downloads. They were way more important. A big thank you to Marisa for her honesty and for being prepared to share her own journey in this regard. For episode seven, we invited Michelle Robinson in to talk about boundaries, and this particular excerpt from episode seven talks about the inherent power dynamic in a singing lesson. Yes. I found this really, really fascinating because as you know, we are running a Master-Apprentice survey right now, and, uh, this is late stages of Michelle's own research. And one of the things that seems to be coming out of it is the relational aspect between the singing teacher and the student, which is a mutual beneficial thing if it works well. There is an inherent power dynamic. I know some people won't like to hear this, but there is an inherent power dynamic. Thank you Kim Burwell, for being the person who pointed this out in the educative process. So, yeah, that, that absolutely is a power dynamic. And actually it's not about getting rid of that in inverted commas power because yes, the teacher generally is the guide and has the knowledge on the voice and performance and what have you. Absolutely. It's how you manage that power, and I think this is one of the most important questions that, that I can give an answer to a high quality relationship. Is never abusive. It never takes advantage of the power a teacher inadvertently has. Okay? Closeness is about genuinely caring for that student and their wellbeing and, and their success. And also for them genuinely caring for you as a teacher, because we know that they do. Mm-hmm. You make a difference to them. Yeah. You impact their lives. We know that. Mm-hmm. The minute a teacher behaves in a way that is detrimental to that student, there is no relationship. Yeah. There is a situation of abuse to a greater or lesser extent as you suggest, and it must not be allowed to continue. As I say, we know that the student is so influenced by their one-to-one teacher. It is far safer to bring out the idea of closeness into the open, to understand what it looks like to understand where the boundaries are, and I think this is where the responsibility on the teachers is so high. Mm-hmm. Because as we said earlier, the teachers aren't therapists. Mm-hmm. Whilst I do think there is an element where you are cre you are having to and should create a safe space and therefore they will talk to you about things that they might not talk to somebody else about. Mm-hmm. It, it then, and this is where the safeguarding comes in, it then is knowing what you do with that information when it becomes something that's too big Yeah. For you. Okay. And I think in terms of boundaries, that's a really key one. Yeah. So being able, able to signal on where appropriate or if necessary from what you're telling me, particularly when people are working with miners, maybe there's something going on that actually needs to be raised. With a different entity. I think there's something that's very interesting about this because it's like you create a safe space that if I, if big emotions happen, they have a space, a safe space to happen in, and you are not phased by them. But I think the difference is that you don't deal with them. Yeah. You allow them to happen and then you move on. Michelle stayed on for episode eight, and in this episode, we were talking about bringing information and data from the sports arena into music education and training, and we were talking about the differences between m- sports education and music education. We could argue that musical performance is largely not competitive. Not competitive. Yeah. So what we're looking at with these elite sports coaches is by and large we do sport for pleasure, but sports are competitive. So are there any areas from those aspects of coaching and these theories that don't map across or need to be changed to map across? Yeah. That's the key difference, isn't it? With sport, it's very easy to show what excellence is by winning a competition, by getting a world record or whatever. It is far less easy to show what excellence is in music, mainly because a lot of it is subjective. Yep. You know, and I think that's possibly key because it's only, it is through somebody being truly. Comfortable and confident in their performance, in the way they deliver their singing. That enables them, I'm making this up on the spot, but enables them to be the best they can be. I never said that a lot. Just thinking it through. If you think, Michelle, if you think about the idea that music is self-expression. Yes. Then what they're doing is expressing themself Yes. To the best of their ability at that moment. Yeah. You talk about, Jeremy talks about maybe when he's working with someone on a, a performance, I want them to find their own best selves through Yes. In the way that they deliver that performance, and you are really strong on that. It's one of the reasons why music is so. In a way easy to do. And that's gonna sound really weird because there's always a version that will fit you. Yes. There's no one right version. No matter the teachers at college say, there is no one right version. There are 58 right versions. And you could do any one of them. And in a way, the bigger goal, I think for a, for an artist. Is to be an artist so that they are themselves as much as they can be, or, or at the very least, they have a persona that is extremely polished and that they can live within for, for years. So if we break that down, what's needed in order for them to do that? They have to be comfortable within themselves. They have to feel that they are in control of what they're doing. Autonomy. They have to feel that they have the ability to do it. They know what they've got to do to produ, you know, they know it on a technical level, but enough that they can leave that behind and start to communicate what it is that they feel about the song or about the story, and they need to feel that is going to be received well. That they're in a space that that is gonna love, that people are going to love. Look as a person, not as a PhD researcher or anything like that as a person, I believe that good performance, good musical performance is soul to soul connection. Yeah. I love that. Soul-to-soul connection. 100%. So in episodes nine and 10, we were talking about singing teachers versus speech and language therapists. And in episode nine, we were talking about the different diagnostic base. So we just wanna do this little excerpt because we think it is really important. Okay, so the speech and language therapy side will be working inside diagnosis. It's very much team-based care. Mm. So you have a whole team of people around you, all of whom may be contributing to the diagnosis and the speech and language therapist's job is to make sure that those things are put into place and also ongoing care. Mm-hmm. Outcomes have to be demonstrated. Yes. And it has to be by and large, based on evidence-based practice. Yeah. And the singing teacher or the Vocal coach is working more functionally, artistically. They're more likely to do one off or very short sessions. Short term sessions. And they're aiming to, on the whole, they are aiming towards performance. It's not always the case. There are non performative versions of singing. Mm-hmm. Obviously. Mm-hmm. But in a way, you are aiming to. Get somebody functional, usually over a wider range and usually with a bigger range of dynamics. Mm-hmm. Because. Singing requires contrast of some kind. So it is very interesting, and I put this into chat, GPT, everybody knows I'm a chat fan at the moment, and it came up with this phrase, medicalized versus functional. And I went, okay, I am not exactly sure what that means. So can you describe for me what it means? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And it came up with two pages of stuff and I think it's really fascinating. So here we go. It's looking, it's starting from a different point. So medicalized means the voice is being viewed mainly through a healthcare lens. That usually includes diagnosis path. Oh, and by the way, diagnosis is not always done by the speech therapist. It's often done by surgeons or by people in on the medical team. It should be done as a result of scoping, at least, and a whole protocol of things that a team will need to go through. So they're looking specifically for pathology or underlying condition, red flags, tissue status. Surgical history, neurological factors, muscle tension, dysphonia, rehab goals, and the scope of practice and referral pathways. So they may be asking the questions that they would ask would be, what's the diagnosis? What's safe? What has been impaired? Does it need rehabilitation or does it need compensation? So the rehabilitation to get back to what would be considered standard function might not be possible. So you then need to compensate in some other way, or are they okay as far as I'm concerned and now need referral? And basically what outcome is realistic within this healthcare context? And obviously that varies country to country. I like here what you've looked at, which is with regard to function. Yep. And the bullet points there. Do you want to read those out?'cause I think they're interesting and then I've got something to say following a singing teacher or a Vocal coach might say to themselves, how is this voice currently working? What is the person trying to achieve? How is their efficiency? How is their stamina? Mm-hmm. How is their clarity? How is their range, the reliability of the voice, their expressive choices? Are they able to make expressive choices, habit and coordination across a much wider range? And how does this function carry over into speaking, singing, teaching, performing, all of the situations that you're gonna find yourself in. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. So they may be asking, what's getting in the way of the task? And I think as well, what I would add to those bullet points is how does the singer feel about their voice? Yes. Or how does the voice user feel about their voice? I think it's very important. I actually think this is one of the questions that speech and language therapists ask anyway, but I think also teachers should be asking this as well, which is what's changed. You know, you can hear somebody, particularly somebody who's a very experienced voice user, and they go. Oh, things have changed and you're listening to them and you go, well, I don't hear anything particularly going on, so tell me what's changed. Mm-hmm. And it's from that information that you can often work out what's been going on. I was in conversation with a speech therapist yesterday about a client that we share and something came up, which was about perfectionism. Oh yeah. And in fact, I've just re-released my article on I Am a recovering perfectionist. Mm-hmm. Because this is also relevant and it's the idea that at you must produce something as a performer that is perfect. Yeah. And perfect doesn't exist because you have, it's not like you are kept in a box with cellophane and then you take out, you take yourself outta the box, and then you sing, and then you go back in the box again. That life doesn't exist. No. So you are always dealing with whatever has happened that day, whatever's happened that week, how you're feeling physically, how tired are you, has anything happened, all of that stuff. And so there is a, a level of best I can do today, and that's a mantra that I have had for decades. I think this is really important. What is your sustainable best I can do today? Yep. And this is particularly important for people who are using their voices professionally, not necessarily in singing. Yep. Who belongs to a category of professional voice users? What is it that you are normally able to sustain and what is it now that you can't? Yes. What changes have you noticed? Something that, um, Laura signaled us to was what about time of day? Does your voice feel worse or better at different times of day? Because that can tell you something about sleep patterns. It could tell you something about possible acid reflux and again, how people are managing their general tension and and stress levels. And it can help you as a teacher or a voice ha rehabilitator if you're a singing voice. Ha rehabilitator. I think we are naturally, I think we've been doing it for ages. It can help you to help people to plan their day with little sort of breaks on SOVT bubbles and so forth and cool downs, and taking five minutes on the floor with your legs over a chair so you can just compress. Small tips like that can make a huge difference to someone's day. And the Vocal loads. And again, there are two things here which I think are interesting. One is that the moment you take away the, here is the performance that I have in my head. I must match it every single time. Mm-hmm. The moment you take that away, you take a whole load of pressure off yourself. And in with that is you need strategies to use when you are having a bad day. I really love that information about taking the case information before you start working with a client, and finding out, you know, what's been going on for them, what kind of a day they normally have, and what's the pattern that has led them to this place where they feel they have a voice problem. Absolutely. And we're gonna finish this one with overlaps and boundaries from episode 10, and this is about why boundaries matter. This is me and Gillyanne talking about boundaries. Can we just say something in terms of wrapping about. Why the overlap is important, but also why boundaries matter. Yes. So we as singing teachers have a lot to learn from the clinical precision, the observation and carry overthinking. Yep. From the medical profession. Yes. And I will say that a lot of our knowledge about Vocal function comes directly from that side of the voice profession. It really does. Mm-hmm. Some of the best courses that we've been on ourselves for our own education have been things like the British Laryngology. Association. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. And the speech and language therapy people, we learn so much from how they deal with voice problems and the union of European for nutritions, yes, that was a standout three days. Conversely, SLTs can gain a lot from practical singing based tools in terms of resonance, Vocal fold, fold coordination, register mechanisms if needed, because we do use them in speech. And also being able to adjust, identify. Adjust identity. Yep. And that's where resonance is. Super, super helpful. Yes. And understanding the performance context. There's something very interesting, particularly for worked with musical theater singers who have to change their style and genre, and often the sound that they make in order to inhabit that particular actor in that particular musical. Mm-hmm. That people are much more used to finding an aspect of themselves, but still sounding different. Yeah. That's a very useful piece of information to have, and it is not something that a speech and language therapist would even think about because the idea that you can hold more than one resonating shape and still make it work is really quite alien. So we had a lot of fun doing some demos where we were speaking in different, different shapes, different settings. Yeah. Yeah. And also the difference between somebody's speaking voice and their speaking voice can work. Reasonably well. And then they go in into an entirely different setup for their singing voice, because that's their singing persona and all the things that they were working quite well in The speaking voice don't work in the singing voice. So that's a another sort of disconnect that the singing teacher can help with. Overlaps matter. Yes. And so do boundaries. Yes. We singing teachers. We don't need to become clinical therapists. Nope. You don't have the training? No, you can do it. You can do the training if you want to. Yeah. But it's not part of your training. And a good therapist doesn't need to become a singing coach. Similar, we need a mutual respect for each other and for the boundaries. Yeah. But both of us can understand more about the instrument and the person and the goal in front of us if we allow overlap. I think the most important thing. Is that you recognize your own abilities and your own gaps. Mm-hmm. Because there's something very powerful about recognizing where your skills lie and where your gaps in the knowledge are. And not saying even to yourself, this singer in front of me has a problem. I am the only person who can solve it. Mm-hmm. I must solve it. I must be the person that they come to. Mm-hmm. We can't pass them on to anybody else. The SLTs are so used to working in a team where everybody has. Input and everybody has their skills and everybody has their levels of expertise and their areas of expertise, and we can learn from that. So we need to keep these conversations going. Yes, it's not about showing off, it's about choosing the right tool and the right person. Mm. That's it. Are we done?. We're done. Okay. We'll see you next time. Bye. Bye. This is a voice, a podcast with Dr. Gillyanne Kayes and Jeremy Fisher. This Is A Voice.